[Moncton] Centre Avenir Centre | 26.65m |~6 Fl | Completed

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by riverviewer

Taxation without Representation?

If Riverview and Dieppe are expected to pay, then Riverview and Dieppe should get input into the cost and scope of the project. Otherwise Moncton can decide for itself, and pay on its own.

You probably don't want Dieppe advising on cost and scope...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

You probably don't want Dieppe advising on cost and scope...

Is this a reference to the Centre Aquatique?

Dieppe went it alone for this project, which is actually a pretty powerful argument as to why Moncton may have to go it alone for the events centre.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

I wonder how long before we can change the thread title, removing the "(Proposed)"?

The next step is (under construction) so - not until shovels hit the ground.

[Scarface]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

The next step is (under construction) so - not until shovels hit the ground.

There supposed to be doing the re-ground breaking in September but who knows...

[JHikka]

It seems rather disingenuous of Riverview and Dieppe taxpayers to expect Moncton to foot the entire bill and then to use the building following its completion. I guess folks from Dieppe and Riverview won't be going to any Wildcats games, trade shows, or concerts held at the new centre? It's counterproductive that all three communities are still separate entities and, if we had a stronger provincial government in this province, they would have been amalgamated years ago. Surcharges for events based on where you live are archaic to say the least.

I'm also not entirely sure why people are deadset on this building operating at a loss as soon as it opens. I'm fairly certain Harbour Station, Metro Centre, and Mile One all operate in the black...and i'm fairly certain the Coliseum does as well. I could be entirely wrong, but even if they run at a loss they bring significant economy benefit to the area and region they're located, so it balances out.

There have been a few other instances like this in the province (Dieppe Aquatics, Dalhousie arena, Sussex v Sussex Corner sports fees) and each of them just highlight the lack of unity we have both as a community and as a province as a whole.

[Taeolas]

I wasn't all that active when Harbour Station came about, but I'm pretty sure it was decried as a White Elephant for SJ at the time and considered a waste of money.

My feel overall is that NB in general doesn't have any good public visionary people who can take on the big projects and push them through all the naysayers/nimbyers/penny pinchers and the rest of those types that are so public. At the provincial level, I'd say McKenna was the last visionary type we had, and at the Municipal level, probably no one since Ian Fowler. Certainly none of the big three City Mayors seem to have any real interest but the Status Quo for their cities.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I'm also not entirely sure why people are deadset on this building operating at a loss as soon as it opens. I'm fairly certain Harbour Station, Metro Centre, and Mile One all operate in the black...and i'm fairly certain the Coliseum does as well. I could be entirely wrong, but even if they run at a loss they bring significant economy benefit to the area and region they're located, so it balances out.

If these types of facilities were truly profitable I would expect the private sector to build them. It's telling that they don't (at least not in smaller cities).

[L'homard]

The Coliseum has never operated in the black, was never expected to, and while I have no knowledge of the others cited above, I would be surprised if any of them ever earned a nickle.
This is to be expected. They are not built to make profits but to generate other business and investment, boost our quality of life and all that sort of good stuff. This is not a secret. I've never heard any proponents of this project say that it will generate profits, and rightly so as they would be lying.

[Sunnybrae]

Originally Posted by OliverD

If these types of facilities were truly profitable I would expect the private sector to build them. It's telling that they don't (at least not in smaller cities).

From what I have read, even in mega cities, most of the sports arena's don't make money in the traditional sense. It's the taxation in spin-off business that helps make the money back via hotels, advertising (Radio, TV), merchandising, restaurants, catering, transportation (buses, cabs, trucking), special event suppliers and on and on. This isn't rocket science if you can just stop for a minute and think how the business you are employed in right now might benefit and the taxes paid on that work that otherwise might never have been done.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

From what I have read, even in mega cities, most of the sports arena's don't make money in the traditional sense. It's the taxation in spin-off business that helps make the money back via hotels, advertising (Radio, TV), merchandising, restaurants, catering, transportation (buses, cabs, trucking), special event suppliers and on and on. This isn't rocket science if you can just stop for a minute and think how the business you are employed in right now might benefit and the taxes paid on that work that otherwise might never have been done.

Right. And that's why I'm ok with investing in projects like this. Unfortunately it seems like the general public often doesn't understand how a "money losing" facility is actually a revenue generator for the community at large. I do understand skepticism though because it often isn't easy to quantify the exact economic benefits of this type of development.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Right. And that's why I'm ok with investing in projects like this. Unfortunately it seems like the general public often doesn't understand how a "money losing" facility is actually a revenue generator for the community at large. I do understand skepticism though because it often isn't easy to quantify the exact economic benefits of this type of development.

Yup. If every govco endeavor had to turn a profit, they certainly wouldn't provide public services at all.

[David_99]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Right. And that's why I'm ok with investing in projects like this. Unfortunately it seems like the general public often doesn't understand how a "money losing" facility is actually a revenue generator for the community at large. I do understand skepticism though because it often isn't easy to quantify the exact economic benefits of this type of development.

It's funny this came out a couples days after the paper revealed the FIFA games in Moncton will generate $40M for the province. Now we're getting $21M towards another event complex and everyone's up in arms. A World Juniors and a Curling Championship and we make that money back.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OliverD

If these types of facilities were truly profitable I would expect the private sector to build them. It's telling that they don't (at least not in smaller cities).

Why would the private sector build them when governments are so eager to fund them themselves?

Originally Posted by David_99

It's funny this came out a couples days after the paper revealed the FIFA games in Moncton will generate $40M for the province. Now we're getting $21M towards another event complex and everyone's up in arms. A World Juniors and a Curling Championship and we make that money back.

Precisely. Skate Canada in Saint John alone injected $4M into the local economy. People underestimate the economic weight that sporting events can pull into a community.

As for the World Juniors I would absolutely expect Moncton to be a co-host with Saint John or Halifax when the new centre is completed. The World Juniors would certainly match, and possibly exceed, the Women's World Cup total of $40M in local economic spinoff.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Why would the private sector build them when governments are so eager to fund them themselves?

That doesn't make sense. Why would the private sector leave money on the table?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OliverD

That doesn't make sense. Why would the private sector leave money on the table?

Because the money can be moved from bricks and mortar to naming rights, sponsorship of events, and holding events within them themselves.

The only instances I can think in NB of a private corporation building rinks is in Bouctouche (Irving) and perhaps the Civic Centre in Florenceville (McCain). Perhaps also the JK Irving in Bathurst although my memory is hazy. They'll provide some stimulus to match other contributions to these facilities (generally up to 33%) but they'll never sole-source fund on their own. Government support means they'll never have to.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Because the money can be moved from bricks and mortar to naming rights, sponsorship of events, and holding events within them themselves.

Right. Because the facility itself isn't worth investing in for a corporation.

[Taeolas]

Companies don't buy/build these centres because they CAN'T turn a profit on them.

If Irvings paid for this new Wildcats arena, they'd only get tix/concession/centre rental money from the building itself. That likely wouldn't be anywhere near enough to pay for it, often it's barely enough to cover operating costs. They certainly don't get money from visitors staying in the hotels, going to the stores, eating in the restaurants, etc....

The Government on the other hand DOES benefit from the secondary effects. When a visitor comes in to go to a big Show, the gov gets money from that visitor from the taxes on the ticket, taxes on the concessions, taxes on the gas they buy, the taxes on the car rental, taxes on the restaurant meals, on the stores they shop in, etc...

Not to mention the Government benefits when a big Hotel group decides to rebuild a hotel next to the convention centre because the centre is now there. The Irvings certainly wouldn't get anything from a new Hotel or a major renovation of an office tower. The government gets it from the building fees, the economic boom from the construction workers, and from the increase in property values.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OliverD

Right. Because the facility itself isn't worth investing in for a corporation.

In smaller locations probably not. If you have some spare time I recommend reading on the Anschutz Entertainment Group. Not only do they own the The LA Kings, LA Lakers, LA Galaxy, six hockey teams, and a number of other teams, but they also own all of the venues they play at. That includes the Staples Center, StubHub Center, The o2, The Sprint Center, and the Target Center. There's money to be had as long as you're willing to operate both the team and the venue.

In Florida, the Panthers bleed red every season, but part of the deal in owning that hockey team is also owning the venue in which they play at. The venue is one of the busiest, if not the busiest in Florida, and makes back the Panthers losses and then a profit on top.

Originally Posted by Taeolas

The Government on the other hand DOES benefit from the secondary effects. When a visitor comes in to go to a big Show, the gov gets money from that visitor from the taxes on the ticket, taxes on the concessions, taxes on the gas they buy, the taxes on the car rental, taxes on the restaurant meals, on the stores they shop in, etc...

Indeed. This fact is lost on a lot of people. The greater economic impact of simply having the Wildcats playing downtown will increase, let alone the concerts and events the building will be hosting.

If you think people are crying now just wait until Irving buys up the naming rights to the new building. One thing to keep in mind is that Halifax gained $650K/year for 10 years ($5.3M) for naming rights to the Metro Centre from Scotiabank...it will be interesting to see what Saint John is able to garner for Harbour Station. This show give a good idea of what Moncton can receive for their naming rights.

[L'homard]

Somehow the Majesta Bowl name doesn't have the same appeal to me as the Scotiabank Centre.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by L'homard

Somehow the Majesta Bowl name doesn't have the same appeal to me as the Scotiabank Centre.

How about the Irving Personal Care Diaper Centre.

Seriously, with the brewery in town, I'm sort of expecting the Moncton Molson/Coors Centre