Canadian Airport Thread II

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

Not sure why it doesn't show on WS website yet but here's the schedules:

WS496 YHM 17:00 - 20:08 YHZ 7S8 D
WS371 YHZ 22:10 - 23:38 YHM 7S8 D

WS466 YHM 08:00 - 12:35 YYT 7S8 12356
WS467 YYT 13:35 - 15:42 YHM 7S8 12356

WS1914 YHM 07:05 - 10:05 MCO 7S8 47
WS1715 MCO 11:30 - 14:20 YHM 7S8 47

I always wonder why WS quietly and separately makes YHM changes with no attention brought to it at all. Seems odd

[Myst]

Originally Posted by big T

What YHU would be well positioned for is low cost leisure, but without pre-clearance you'd have to go for really attractive fares to make up for the inconvenience.

As much as preclearance is popular, I don’t know that leisure travellers would pay any extra for it.

I wonder if preclearance costs anything extra. If it does, a non-precleared airport could actually be an advantage for a leisure airline.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Base

Still baffled YHU is shutout from transborder operations. Seems very anti competitive.

ADM was smart putting that clause in their lease agreement with Transport Canada.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Does anyone know whether PD will be able to sell transborder/international connections to/from YHU via YOW/YYZ or is that also banned too as part of the ADM's monopoly on those flights?

Pretty sure they will be able to do that. ADM has exclusivity on international flights out of Montreal. Not passengers.

Originally Posted by Myst

As much as preclearance is popular, I don’t know that leisure travellers would pay any extra for it.

I wonder if preclearance costs anything extra. If it does, a non-precleared airport could actually be an advantage for a leisure airline.

Setting up preclearance costs money for the airport authority (building the space for it, etc). Once that's done, the rest is on the US. The personnel and operating costs associated with the pre-clearance facility (salaries and benefits of its preclearance officers; purchase, inspection, and maintenance of equipment, etc.) is all paid by the US.

Whether you fly out of YUL or YHU, if your final destination is somewhere in the US, you will be paying the same fee for USCBP in your ticket, which at the moment is 6.97$ per passenger. Doesn't matter where you clear customs.

[Dominion301]

YOW's January 2024 pax numbers are out. The weak domestic numbers can pretty much be entirely attributed to F8 + 3 fewer daily WS departures to YYZ. PD's additions haven't had time yet to catch up with the lost capacity.

Sector / Jan-23 / Jan-24 / % Change
Dom: 204,142 / 198,166 / -2.9%
TB: 42,530 / 71,462 / +68.0% - just shy of 2015's record of 72,879
Int'l: 54,055 / 71,790 / +32.8% - close to 2012's record, both for January and all-time monthly of 73,607
TTL: 300,727 / 341,418 / +13.5% - slightly higher than 2008 which came in at 340,169

January % of traffic recovered vs 2019
Sector / Traffic % recovered January 2024 vs January 2019
Dom: 72.6%
TB: 107.3%
Int'l: 112.5%
TTL: 84.6%

12 Months Rolling / % Change vs Year End 2022
Dom: 3,196,923 / +18.0%
TB: 605,065 / +217.9%
Int'l: 334,617 / +232.5%
TTL: 4,136,605 / +253.3%

[thenoflyzone]

As of tonight, Mexicans will need visas to enter Canada once again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mex...ylum-1.7128408

Let’s see how this affects AM on their multiple daily flights from MEX to YUL, YVR and YYZ. I think reductions are more than likely.

The article says it won’t be as bad as the Harper era visa requirement, but that it will still affect 40% of Mexican travellers to Canada.

[hollywoodcory]

WS resumes TATL operations from Eastern Canada today with daily YYZ-DUB kicking off. First non-YYC TATL since 2022.

WS will operate to up to 4 Europe destinations this month which is the most they've served this early in the season. (LHR, CDG, DUB and FCO).

[whatnext]

Somewhat tangential but it is great to see Boeing unwinding some of the disastrous decisions made by previous leaders. Now move the HQ back to Seattle!

Boeing Is in Talks to Buy Ex-Unit Spirit AeroSystems
Both companies are facing scrutiny over quality lapses
Spirit Aero had been owned by Boeing before 2005 spinout
March 1, 2024 at 8:17 AM PST

Boeing Co. is in discussions to acquire Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc., a move that would reclaim control of its struggling former aerostructures unit and the main supplier at the center of numerous quality issues affecting the 737 Max airliner....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06

[thenoflyzone]

StatsCan finally posted December 2023 aircraft movements numbers for Canada's airports. So 2023 full year figures are available if you add up the monthly totals.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=2310029601

I already did the hard work and compiled it all, at least for the top 22 airports in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Notable decreases compared to last year, most likely all VFR movement related:

YQB (-12.4%)
YTZ (-10.5%)
YOW (-7.1%)

They all lost several spots in the rankings.

There are some tight races to watch for this year, if the Y.O.Y increases trend the same way...(YYC/YUL in particular).

Originally Posted by whatnext

Somewhat tangential but it is great to see Boeing unwinding some of the disastrous decisions made by previous leaders. Now move the HQ back to Seattle!

Boeing Is in Talks to Buy Ex-Unit Spirit AeroSystems
Both companies are facing scrutiny over quality lapses
Spirit Aero had been owned by Boeing before 2005 spinout
March 1, 2024 at 8:17 AM PST

Boeing Co. is in discussions to acquire Spirit AeroSystems Holdings Inc., a move that would reclaim control of its struggling former aerostructures unit and the main supplier at the center of numerous quality issues affecting the 737 Max airliner....


https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...&sref=x4rjnz06

Spirit has been a shit show for a number of years now. This is a good move by Boeing.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

StatsCan finally posted December 2023 aircraft movements numbers for Canada's airports. So 2023 full year figures are available if you add up the monthly totals.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=2310029601

I already did the hard work and compiled it all, at least for the top 22 airports in the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Notable decreases compared to last year, most likely all VFR movement related:

YQB (-12.4%)
YTZ (-10.5%)
YOW (-7.1%)

They all lost several spots in the rankings.

There are some tight races to watch for this year, if the Y.O.Y increases trend the same way...(YYC/YUL in particular).



Spirit has been a shit show for a number of years now. This is a good move by Boeing.

That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

Yeah Boeing spinning off ICT into Spirit was nothing but corporate greed just like the HQ move to a city where they had no historical ties to. It’s karma on them.

[samuelx88]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

Yeah Boeing spinning off ICT into Spirit was nothing but corporate greed just like the HQ move to a city where they had no historical ties to. It’s karma on them.

I think it is caused by the removal of all South flights from YQB by AC this winter

[thenoflyzone]

I compiled the aircraft movement numbers for 2022/2023 for all 42 airports with NavCan control towers in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada

Originally Posted by Dominion301

That’s quite the movements drop for those 3 airports. Commercial movements had to have been up at YQB and YOW and were probably down slightly at YTZ, which makes the VFR drop at YOW & YQB even more pronounced. I wonder why? In the case of YOW, it might be partially explained by the alternative airfields nearby for general aviation - YRP - Carp, YRO - Rockcliffe and YND - Gatineau. YND has a FSS, and I checked and movements in 2023 were +3,557 vs 2022.

With YOO up 19% it’s evident where all the Buttonville movements went to. Some probably also went to the privately owned Brampton air strip. Surprised none shifted to YTZ.

YND is becoming very busy. NavCan might open a control tower at the airport. It's currently only an FSS and handled over 57,000 movements in 2023. That's busier than over a dozen airports with control towers in the country, including some big name airports like YHZ, YMX, YHM, YZF and YQR. However, it is worth mentioning that the usual caveat still applies here, in that FSS numbers include overflights, whereas control tower numbers do not. Don't know how StatsCan is dealing with this now, so that is why my list on wiki only includes NavCan airports with control towers.

Level of service study for YND is currently in progress.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/air-traf...-gatineau.aspx

As for Buttonville, I'm not surprised about the GA pilots not moving over to YTZ. If you lived around YKZ, then City-Centre is not convenient at all. It also might not have that much additional space for aircraft parking, and the airport fees at YTZ must be astronomical compared to a place like YOO.

Originally Posted by samuelx88

I think it is caused by the removal of all South flights from YQB by AC this winter

No.

AC’s winter seasonal sun flights out of YQB were negligible in terms of additional movements.

The reduction in movements from 2022>2023 was 16,720 movements. AC's flights to sun routes (FLL, CUN, PUJ and MCO), based on the source linked, was 18 flights a week (at peak), for ~4 months out of the year. That's less than 300 arrivals/departures. That's it. So clearly not the main reason.

[JakeLRS]

Originally Posted by hehehe

I always wonder why WS quietly and separately makes YHM changes with no attention brought to it at all. Seems odd

They would usually release a press release on YHM adds, but almost a week later, neither the airline or the airport has announced any of these new additions... Are they maybe still waiting to add another route or two before announcing?

I swear, WS/YHM have the strangest relationship ever.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by JakeLRS

They would usually release a press release on YHM adds, but almost a week later, neither the airline or the airport has announced any of these new additions... Are they maybe still waiting to add another route or two before announcing?

I swear, WS/YHM have the strangest relationship ever.

Makes zero sense for WS to add only YHZ & YYT out of YHM and to simply reduce service to YYC out west. You’d think they’d do seasonal YWG, YEG and YVR 3-7x weekly each.

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

I compiled the aircraft movement numbers for 2022/2023 for all 42 airports with NavCan control towers in Canada.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...orts_in_Canada



YND is becoming very busy. NavCan might open a control tower at the airport. It's currently only an FSS and handled over 57,000 movements in 2023. That's busier than over a dozen airports with control towers in the country, including some big name airports like YHZ, YMX, YHM, YZF and YQR. However, it is worth mentioning that the usual caveat still applies here, in that FSS numbers include overflights, whereas control tower numbers do not. Don't know how StatsCan is dealing with this now, so that is why my list on wiki only includes NavCan airports with control towers.

Level of service study for YND is currently in progress.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/air-traf...-gatineau.aspx

As for Buttonville, I'm not surprised about the GA pilots not moving over to YTZ. If you lived around YKZ, then City-Centre is not convenient at all. It also might not have that much additional space for aircraft parking, and the airport fees at YTZ must be astronomical compared to a place like YOO.



No.

AC’s winter seasonal sun flights out of YQB were negligible in terms of additional movements.

The reduction in movements from 2022>2023 was 16,720 movements. AC's flights to sun routes (FLL, CUN, PUJ and MCO), based on the source linked, was 18 flights a week (at peak), for ~4 months out of the year. That's less than 300 arrivals/departures. That's it. So clearly not the main reason.

That’s interesting about the YND tower study. Traffic there falls off a cliff from December-February but on a sunny summertime touch & go Saturday is probably busier than YOW.

[Djeffery]

What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

As of tonight, Mexicans will need visas to enter Canada once again.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mex...ylum-1.7128408

Let’s see how this affects AM on their multiple daily flights from MEX to YUL, YVR and YYZ. I think reductions are more than likely.

The article says it won’t be as bad as the Harper era visa requirement, but that it will still affect 40% of Mexican travellers to Canada.

I've travelled between YYZ and MEX a number of times over the years. Prices were significantly lower a number of years ago, but from both YYZ and YVR prices had ballooned in the years following the visa requirement being lifted in 2016, I'm guessing due to demand. I'm going there again later this year and it was actually cheaper for me to fly from YVR to San Diego and then cross to Tijuana and fly the rest of the way from there.

I would assume prices will come down to some extent, but it shouldn't have much impact on business travel or tourist travel from those who already are avid travelers. Anyone I know there that would potentially travel to Canada already has a US visa and would not be impacted by the new Canadian visa requirements.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

Unless something's changed in recent years that @Thenoflyzone can correct, a Cessna doing touch-and-go circuits would constitute 2 local movements - the initial takeoff and the final landing.

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

What constitutes an "aircraft movement"? A student goes out, takes off, does 3 touch and go's and one final landing in an hour. Does that count as 8 movements, one for each take off and landing, or only 2 for the initial take off and final landing, or does a touch and go count as one movement, for 5 in that example? For YXU to have 300-ish a day on average, I would have to think almost 90% of those are student flights from the several flight schools.

It counts as 8 movements.

A takeoff is a movement.
A landing is a movement.
A touch and go is a combination of both of them, so counts as 2 movements (a landing, followed immediately by a takeoff)

Therefore, a takeoff, 3 touch and goes, followed by a landing counts as 8 movements.

This is why and how an airport like Boundary Bay is the third busiest airport in the country. 70% of the movements there are local, i.e. touch and goes.

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Unless something's changed in recent years that @Thenoflyzone can correct, a Cessna doing touch-and-go circuits would constitute 2 local movements - the initial takeoff and the final landing.

No. Like I said above, every landing and every takeoff counts as a movement. Doesn’t matter if they are done separately, or in one motion (touch and go).

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

It counts as 8 movements.

A takeoff is a movement.
A landing is a movement.
A touch and go is a combination of both of them, so counts as 2 movements (a landing, followed immediately by a takeoff)

Therefore, a takeoff, 3 touch and goes, followed by a landing counts as 8 movements.

This is why and how an airport like Boundary Bay is the third busiest airport in the country. 70% of the movements there are local, i.e. touch and goes.



No. Like I said above, every landing and every takeoff counts as a movement. Doesn’t matter if they are done separately, or in one motion (touch and go).

Thanks for clarifying as I had always been under the impression Statistics Canada only counted the takeoff and the final landing. So does that mean low approaches aren't counted?

[thenoflyzone]

Originally Posted by Dominion301

Thanks for clarifying as I had always been under the impression Statistics Canada only counted the takeoff and the final landing. So does that mean low approaches aren't counted?

Low approaches are also counted twice.

The benefit of doing a low approach vs a touch and go (especially at airports like YYZ/YUL) is that they don’t have to pay the landing fee (which can be very expensive) each time.

But movement wise, it’s counted the same as a touch and go.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

Low approaches are also counted twice.

The benefit of doing a low approach vs a touch and go (especially at airports like YYZ/YUL) is that they don’t have to pay the landing fee (which can be very expensive) each time.

But movement wise, it’s counted the same as a touch and go.

Interesting. Do you know if the way in which NavCan counts/records movements is an international standard? Like the Americans talk about operations instead of movements. Do they even concern themselves with local movements?