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  #721  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 7:46 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
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The duplicity of the affair bothers me.

It's just so underhanded and manipulative. Lots of *wink, wink, nudge, nudge* to everyone who is winning on the scheme.

Educational institutions who are peddling crap get something the keeps the coffers full. Never mind the quality, usefulness, or reputation of a Canadian education. Trash the reputation for the dollar today; get-rich-quick schemes always work out in the long run. They've no obligation to figure out where these people are going to live, so minimal burden for them other than finding an auditorium big enough for super-classes.

Low-wage employers get their boots filled too. Why deal with picky locals when one has whole piles of people that desperately need to money to pay for that non-education they're getting here?

Policy-makers love it too - the scheme won't end up as disillusioned voters for awhile and it has none of the icky TFW bad-optic stink to it. Hey, they're students getting a fine Canadian education!

If we were honest about our designs, we'd just increase the TFW program and make employers who avail themselves to it accountable for the housing needed. Everybody would at least know the score coming in; we wouldn't saddle newcomers with big debt for a crap education, and they'd get their workforce.

But this is Canada! *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*
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  #722  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 8:11 PM
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We're working on structuring a syndicated loan for a GTA-based post-secondary institution to acquire an existing office building. I can't really get into details, but the proposal that has been put forth includes projections around what percentage of student growth from this new space will be international students paying significantly higher tuition rates to pad the cash flow. Not to mention how almost 40% of the gross floor area will be designated for administrative purposes to free up learning spaces in the core campus for, you guessed it, more international students.

It's quite eye-opening to watch this unfold at the ground level. Unsurprisingly, I've yet to hear any conversation about housing requirements for all of this projected growth. They approach post-secondary education like you would expect a hedge fund manager to, as opposed to an organization focused on delivering quality education.
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  #723  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 8:58 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post



If they weren't paying tuition they wouldn't be in this country. That's the whole point of this two-birds-one-stone scheme. I don't know if you've been listening to Marc Miller, but the goal isn't to provide these people with an education. They're here to provide us with cheap labour and bolster the post secondary education industry.
Very true but there is also another political advantage for the Liberals.........it makes it look like our economy is doing better than it is.

To the average person, if an economy is growing at 2% and unemployment statistically low, it makes it appear like things are going well. Of course, when our population is growing at 3% that means per-capita we are getting poorer by 1% a year.

Added to that is that it looks good for Canda internationally and helps somewhat strengthen the Loonie. This is due to the fact that international students are technically considered exports. An export is when you sell something made domestically and sell it to someone outside the country and this is what we do with education ..........provide a service that foreigners want to buy. It helps artificially prop up our balance of trade and hence the value of the Loonie.
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  #724  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 10:11 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Don't get me wrong. I view those students are victims in all of this.

Nothing wrong with them coming and working hard to pay their way through getting an education is it is a path to an education they can use.

When they are sold something different and are left with a marginal degree that does not help them get a "good job" then absolutely it is exploitive and should not be permitted to happen.
I am not sure it's exploitive or that they are victims. I think there are a lot of takers for a legal path to living in Canada even without a valued credential. Lots are willing to work hard for what seems like very generous basic wages in Canada. But even if it isn't exploitive the current situation in Canada means it is no longer of net benefit to Canada and as such should be stopped. We certainly shouldn't lie to incoming immigrants but our policy should be focussed on what is best for Canada and not only business owners.
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  #725  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 11:13 PM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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Don't get me wrong. I view those students are victims in all of this.

Nothing wrong with them coming and working hard to pay their way through getting an education is it is a path to an education they can use.

When they are sold something different and are left with a marginal degree that does not help them get a "good job" then absolutely it is exploitive and should not be permitted to happen.
I am not sure you are assuming they are unfamiliar with the situation. They aren’t travelling to Canada and spending thousands of dollars because they want to learn how to use Microsoft Office at a career college. It seems much more likely the work permit is the objective.

Somewhat analogously, I did an exchange in undergrad with a Dutch university. As no exchange students speak Dutch, they set up some bird courses in various Dutch topics for exchange students. Neither I, nor the Dutch university, nor my Canadian university could have possibly thought my knowledge of Dutch painting was contributing anything towards my degree, but there was a mutual interest by all of the parties involved to pretend otherwise.
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  #726  
Old Posted Nov 13, 2023, 11:40 PM
casper casper is offline
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I am not sure you are assuming they are unfamiliar with the situation. They aren’t travelling to Canada and spending thousands of dollars because they want to learn how to use Microsoft Office at a career college. It seems much more likely the work permit is the objective.

Somewhat analogously, I did an exchange in undergrad with a Dutch university. As no exchange students speak Dutch, they set up some bird courses in various Dutch topics for exchange students. Neither I, nor the Dutch university, nor my Canadian university could have possibly thought my knowledge of Dutch painting was contributing anything towards my degree, but there was a mutual interest by all of the parties involved to pretend otherwise.
They may very likely be familiar and know what it is going on. I suspect most of them have talked to friends or family that have done it before.

It is still amount to charging people a lot of money for the privilege of learning MS-Office while pretending it is more than that.

I would much rather they come in as temporary foreign workers, they keep the thousands they are spending in tuition and avoid having to waste their time. Yes, I think we should offer a path for temporary foreign workers to gain permanent status.

It is about being upfront and honest about what they are getting themselves into.
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  #727  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 6:00 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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They may very likely be familiar and know what it is going on. I suspect most of them have talked to friends or family that have done it before.

It is still amount to charging people a lot of money for the privilege of learning MS-Office while pretending it is more than that.

I would much rather they come in as temporary foreign workers, they keep the thousands they are spending in tuition and avoid having to waste their time. Yes, I think we should offer a path for temporary foreign workers to gain permanent status.

It is about being upfront and honest about what they are getting themselves into.
I would agree with that. But I also think TFW programs should not be open ended. Employers should have to demonstrate that other techniques such as raising salaries and improving benefits have not worked and it should not be used for gig economy jobs.
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  #728  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 3:14 PM
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I'm putting this here because once again, silly and uninformed domestic politics is going to negatively affect our ability to adequately monitor our ocean approaches (at a minimum) if Bombardier, the governments of Ontario and Quebec, and the HoC Defence Committee gets their way. (And by the way, there was a Request for Information (RFI) released in Feb of 2022 that Bombardier never bothered to answer.
https://buyandsell.gc.ca/cds/public/...02.10.2022.pdf)

Bombardier, the CMMA and the Real Scandal
https://www.navalreview.ca/2023/11/b...-real-scandal/

By Dan Middlemiss, 12 November 2023

Appearing before the House of Commons Standing Committee on National Defence on 7 November 2023, Bombardier CEO Eric Martel once again claimed that the procurement process for the new Canadian Multi-Mission Aircraft (CMMA) is “deeply flawed and lacking transparencies” and that there has “clearly” been a violation of proper procedures.

“Too often, our current procurement approach starts too late, is not strategic and results in the acquisition of equipment that is just good enough, rather than the most cutting-edge solution,” Martel said, adding that Bombardier has “a more capable solution” with aircraft that can fly faster, higher and further than the alternative options being considered. “We’re capable, we can do it. We’ve done it for other people and we’re not even being considered? This is a scandal.”

Martel claims the cost to operate the Bombardier aircraft will be 30-40 per cent less than the Boeing P-8 option, and that its planes will be more efficient, burning 40 per cent less fuel. He also stated that the contract would create 22,000 jobs in Canada, because the planes would be produced in Ontario and Quebec.

In addition, on the same day the Premiers of both Ontario and Quebec renewed their earlier July lobbying efforts on behalf of the proposed Bombardier-General Dynamics offering by issuing a joint statement which called on the federal government to allow an open, level playing field procurement process that permits Canadian companies to compete for the CMMA contract.

“Should the federal government maintain its intention to grant a sole-source contract, we’re calling on the House of Commons to request that the Parliamentary Budget Officer review the costs and consequences related to this decision,” the Premiers said in the statement.

“We understand that all governments need to be able to deliver on their priorities while ensuring the best value for taxpayer dollars. Allowing Canadian companies and their workers every opportunity to compete only supports this goal.”

So, OK, once again a Canadian-based defence company wants to have a big, lucrative defence contract remain in Canada. Fair enough, fierce lobbying efforts can be expected when large procurement dollars are at stake. But a closer examination of Bombardier’s claims demonstrates where the real scandal lies.

To put it bluntly, the Bombardier-General Dynamics proposal is no more than a paper aircraft. It does not yet exist. Yet, for the sake of jobs (and of course company profits) Bombardier wants a competition where an actual contender, the P-8, exists and has been operating successfully with many of Canada’s main allies for several years, competes against an as yet to be completely designed, developed and tested aircraft. True, Bombardier’s passenger business jet, the GS 6500, is quite impressive and has done well in sales, but its alleged superior qualities are likely to evaporate once the basic airframe in militarized with mission bay doors, various necessary antennae, and new suites of combat systems. Contrary to the impression it is trying to create, Bombardier has only built a few VIP transport aircraft and the like for other countries; it has not built the type of military multi-mission (including ASW) combat aircraft that DND is looking for.

Canada’s venerable CP-140 fleet needs replacing now, not years down the road when Bombardier and company finally develop a prototype and get it properly tested and certified to military standards. The P-8 is a known quantity, is fully interoperable with comparable P-8 fleets around the world, and its life cycle costs are well established. Moreover, Boeing, the P-8 manufacturer, has extensive supply chain links to many prominent defence and civilian industry firms in Canada.

There are certainly occasions when Ottawa’s contract competition and build-in-Canada procurement provisions make sense, This is not one of them, especially when a well-proven aircraft is readily available. If Canada did cave in under the lobbying pressure being exerted by Bombardier, then the CAF and Ottawa would be saddled with yet another orphan platform (remember the same sort of arguments being made for the CC-295 Kingfisher SAR aircraft?) that will find few if any takers elsewhere.

Let’s get on with the job and allow Ottawa to make a sensible – and obvious – decision for the P-8.
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  #729  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 3:48 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
We're working on structuring a syndicated loan for a GTA-based post-secondary institution to acquire an existing office building. I can't really get into details, but the proposal that has been put forth includes projections around what percentage of student growth from this new space will be international students paying significantly higher tuition rates to pad the cash flow. Not to mention how almost 40% of the gross floor area will be designated for administrative purposes to free up learning spaces in the core campus for, you guessed it, more international students.

It's quite eye-opening to watch this unfold at the ground level. Unsurprisingly, I've yet to hear any conversation about housing requirements for all of this projected growth. They approach post-secondary education like you would expect a hedge fund manager to, as opposed to an organization focused on delivering quality education.
Unsurprising. Who runs our universities. In most countries publicly funded universities are directly or indirectly run by governments. The best model is arms length for sure but ours are run by administrators who naturally have their own interest at heart which is growing larger and hence growing their responsibilities and pay.

I would hope the risk of this loan is seen as the international student tap may be shut off.
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  #730  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 5:56 PM
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Originally Posted by theman23 View Post
This sounds like a functional immigration system.

Food banks unable to keep up with demand from international students:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...away-1.7024375

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/londo...sits-1.7025016
Great. So not only are they taking food bank aid away from Canadians who need it most but they're also putting downward pressure on the lower wages those food bank users are likely to have.

Time to end this scam.
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  #731  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 8:21 PM
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I'm not sure if this is based on a new poll?

If an election were held today, who would win? Data projects huge Tory victory
By Cormac Mac Sweeney

Posted November 13, 2023 2:36 pm. Last Updated November 13, 2023 4:37 pm.

It has been clear for some time that the Trudeau Liberals have been struggling in the polls, but a new survey and analysis finds if an election were held today, the Grits would be headed to a stunning defeat.

Abacus Data crunched the numbers over several polls to make a seat projection. That projection shows the Liberals would lose more than half their seats and Pierre Poilievre’s Conservatives would be heading to a solid majority if Canadians cast their ballots right now.

“You’ve got the Conservatives winning 204 seats — that’s a 77-seat gain for them. The Liberals are in second at 69, a drop of 87 seats, with the Bloc at 43, and the New Democrats at 27,” explained Abacus Data CEO David Coletto....


https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/...conservatives/
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  #732  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 8:33 PM
thewave46 thewave46 is offline
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Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN View Post
I'm putting this here because once again, silly and uninformed domestic politics is going to negatively affect our ability to adequately monitor our ocean approaches (at a minimum) if Bombardier, the governments of Ontario and Quebec, and the HoC Defence Committee gets their way.
Defence procurement is never going to be a slam-dunk, no opposition kind of thing. The United States has huge battles over procurement in Congress.

Mostly, it's a silly sideshow because Bombardier knows they've no airplane to sell. I get the political angle as they have to try something. Even if it is silly.

The P-8 flies. It works. Our allies use it. I fully expect it to bear RCAF colours.
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  #733  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 8:57 PM
ssiguy ssiguy is offline
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I am glad these international students are being denied access to our Food Banks.

When in studying in Canada they are suppose to be able to prove that they can support themselves financially. Those that cannot should be tossed out of the country immediately because it means they flat out lied on their student visa application and hence should be unceremoniously turfed out of the country.

As far as this "I didn't know the cost of living would be so high" excuse goes, I don't buy it. These are suppose to be students of post-secondary education and if they can't take five minutes away from their precious IPhone time with their OMG conversations with their BFF to Google the cost of living, then I doubt they have the grey matter to do their studies in the first place.
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  #734  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 9:00 PM
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VANRIDERFAN VANRIDERFAN is offline
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The P-8 flies. It works. Our allies use it. I fully expect it to bear RCAF colours.
I’d love to be as confident as you are, I really am. I’m just having a really bad feeling about this and that the GoC will find a way to fuck it up.
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  #735  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 10:07 PM
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I'm not sure if this is based on a new poll?

If an election were held today, who would win? Data projects huge Tory victory
By Cormac Mac Sweeney

Posted November 13, 2023 2:36 pm. Last Updated November 13, 2023 4:37 pm.

It has been clear for some time that the Trudeau Liberals have been struggling in the polls, but a new survey and analysis finds if an election were held today, the Grits would be headed to a stunning defeat.

Abacus Data crunched the numbers over several polls to make a seat projection. That projection shows the Liberals would lose more than half their seats and Pierre Poilievre’s Conservatives would be heading to a solid majority if Canadians cast their ballots right now.

“You’ve got the Conservatives winning 204 seats — that’s a 77-seat gain for them. The Liberals are in second at 69, a drop of 87 seats, with the Bloc at 43, and the New Democrats at 27,” explained Abacus Data CEO David Coletto....


https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/...conservatives/
If it held until the election, I wonder if it would drive many NDPers to vote strategically for the Liberals, or whether the inevitable Conservative majority would see them sticking with the NDP?
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  #736  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 10:08 PM
kwoldtimer kwoldtimer is offline
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I am glad these international students are being denied access to our Food Banks.

When in studying in Canada they are suppose to be able to prove that they can support themselves financially. Those that cannot should be tossed out of the country immediately because it means they flat out lied on their student visa application and hence should be unceremoniously turfed out of the country.

As far as this "I didn't know the cost of living would be so high" excuse goes, I don't buy it. These are suppose to be students of post-secondary education and if they can't take five minutes away from their precious IPhone time with their OMG conversations with their BFF to Google the cost of living, then I doubt they have the grey matter to do their studies in the first place.
A bureaucratic nightmare best avoided by ensuring they have the means before they are admitted to Canada.
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  #737  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 11:01 PM
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A bureaucratic nightmare best avoided by ensuring they have the means before they are admitted to Canada.

Why would they do they do this? As the minister pointed out, the immigration scheme is a response to pressure from the Liberal's friends in corporate Canada. Increasing the the amount of on-hand cash required would reduce the number of students and also select for students who are less likely to need to work while here. That would defeat the whole purpose of Liberal's admitted wage suppressing and post-secondary industry boosting scheme.
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  #738  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2023, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ssiguy View Post
I am glad these international students are being denied access to our Food Banks.

When in studying in Canada they are suppose to be able to prove that they can support themselves financially. Those that cannot should be tossed out of the country immediately because it means they flat out lied on their student visa application and hence should be unceremoniously turfed out of the country.

As far as this "I didn't know the cost of living would be so high" excuse goes, I don't buy it. These are suppose to be students of post-secondary education and if they can't take five minutes away from their precious IPhone time with their OMG conversations with their BFF to Google the cost of living, then I doubt they have the grey matter to do their studies in the first place.
Uh...they are supposed to prove they have a certain amounts of funds on hand. Most probably have. It just so happens that the amount that we ask for is less than 40% of the poverty line. What grounds do we have to deport people who've met all of our requirements?

Googling will lead you this government of Canada web page that tells them they can survive on $10,000 a year in Canada. For reference, the poverty line for a single adult is $25,000 a year. If they bring their spouse and child, they'll need $17,000 a year. It seems impossible for any family to survive on that much.

I'm not sure if their google search would have led them to your posts, but I'm fairly certain most reasonable people would use the information provided on the official Canadian government web page rather than some random poster on an internet forum:

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration...documents.html

Interestingly, there about 1 million Canadians living in "deep poverty" (defined as less than $11,000 a year). By bringing in 1 million international students last year we've potentially doubled the demand for the services these people require in a very short time span. But as the minister pointed out, there are competing interests here. For example Rogers is pretty happy with the scheme because they just sold a bunch of cell phone plans.
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Last edited by theman23; Nov 14, 2023 at 11:30 PM.
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  #739  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2023, 3:05 AM
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Marty_Mcfly Marty_Mcfly is offline
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I'm not sure if this is based on a new poll?

If an election were held today, who would win? Data projects huge Tory victory
By Cormac Mac Sweeney

Posted November 13, 2023 2:36 pm. Last Updated November 13, 2023 4:37 pm.

It has been clear for some time that the Trudeau Liberals have been struggling in the polls, but a new survey and analysis finds if an election were held today, the Grits would be headed to a stunning defeat.

Abacus Data crunched the numbers over several polls to make a seat projection. That projection shows the Liberals would lose more than half their seats and Pierre Poilievre’s Conservatives would be heading to a solid majority if Canadians cast their ballots right now.

“You’ve got the Conservatives winning 204 seats — that’s a 77-seat gain for them. The Liberals are in second at 69, a drop of 87 seats, with the Bloc at 43, and the New Democrats at 27,” explained Abacus Data CEO David Coletto....


https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/11/...conservatives/
I think they're just modelling their own polling. Abacus has a poll from about 2 weeks ago so it's nothing new at this point.

Pretty much all modelling of current polls using a simple uniform swing from 2021 have the CPC around 200 seats, with the Liberals anywhere between 50 and 80.

Taking Nanos completely isolated (which is probably a bad idea but we'll theoretically do it), if Jagmeet sees the NDP eclipsing the Liberals, do you think he pulls the plug? Is it better to be the official opposition in a super-majority CPC government, or the 4th place party with power in the current house?
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  #740  
Old Posted Nov 15, 2023, 4:25 AM
acottawa acottawa is offline
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I think they're just modelling their own polling. Abacus has a poll from about 2 weeks ago so it's nothing new at this point.

Pretty much all modelling of current polls using a simple uniform swing from 2021 have the CPC around 200 seats, with the Liberals anywhere between 50 and 80.

Taking Nanos completely isolated (which is probably a bad idea but we'll theoretically do it), if Jagmeet sees the NDP eclipsing the Liberals, do you think he pulls the plug? Is it better to be the official opposition in a super-majority CPC government, or the 4th place party with power in the current house?
Unlike Layton who made individual deals with the government, Singh went all in as a de facto coalition. I think it is going to be impossible to wash the Trudeau stink before the election. NDP’s only chance is to get a new leader who returns the party to opposition.
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