Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've often used the "accident of history" theory to explain our continued existence, but yeah there is probably resilience and stubbornness that enters into it as well.

I mean even far outside Quebec, you still have small regions like these that still operate (tant bien que mal) primarily in French. At least for the moment - long-term prospects might not be so good but it's still over 250 years for them as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3323...8192?entry=ttu

Zoom out and see where this is.

Religion is likely a key factor. With New Amsterdam and New Sweden, the Dutch and Swedish colonists would have been Protestants and so their assimilation into British society would have been a lot easier. The religion barrier that came with the French settlers being Roman Catholic made this sort of assimilation much more difficult.

In some alternate history where New France was settled mainly by Huguenot refugees, they would have probably assimilated just as fast the New Amsterdammers did.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Religion is likely a key factor. With New Amsterdam and New Sweden, the Dutch and Swedish colonists would have been Protestants and so their assimilation into British society would have been a lot easier. The religion barrier that came with the French settlers being Roman Catholic made this sort of assimilation much more difficult.

In some alternate history where New France was settled mainly by Huguenot refugees, they would have probably assimilated just as fast the New Amsterdammers did.

Good points.

Old saying: La foi gardienne de la langue, la langue gardienne de la foi.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Loco101

Quebec has its own government that operates only in French. That is what makes the biggest difference. That is not the case for those areas of European countries as far as I'm aware.

Catalonia has its own government that operates only in Catalan (with some services for Spanish speakers, same as in Québec for English speakers).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

The religion barrier that came with the French settlers being Roman Catholic made this sort of assimilation much more difficult.

The Catholic Spanish settlers of Florida, Texas, California were all assimilated into the Anglophone maelstrom of the USA, however. Remember "Zorro"?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Catalonia has its own government that operates only in Catalan (with some services for Spanish speakers, same as in Québec for English speakers).

Correct. Though last time I checked, the Spanish central government generally provides its services in Spanish only or primarily in Spanish, even in Catalonia.

Whereas in Canada, the federal government is almost perfectly seamless in serving francophones in Quebec in French.

The Generalitat (Catalan regional government) is almost the gold standard in Europe for autonomy for ethnolinguistic minorities, with the exception of strict linguistic territoriality practised in Switzerland and to some degree in Belgium. The latter being actually quite a bit better than what Quebec has within Canada.

Even so, Wales (and also Navarra - or Euskadi - the Basque country of Spain) also have some measure of autonomy, but it's not as extensive as Catalonia or Quebec. Plus their demographics aren't as "good" as Catalonia's, with only maybe 20-25% of people being speakers of the historical languages Welsh or Basque.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The Catholic Spanish settlers of Florida, Texas, California were all assimilated into the Anglophone maelstrom of the USA, however. Remember "Zorro"?

The USA was explicitly founded on separation of church & state and religious pluralism and there were Roman Catholics in the US from the beginning (Maryland is called that because it was a Catholic settlement, for example) so it wasn't a huge barrier for the USA to accept Catholics into the fold.

In the British Empire, Catholicism was more or less a banned religion until the 1830s.

Another key factor was that the British granted Quebec administrative distinction pretty early on (in 1773) with the Quebec Act that guaranteed the continuance of French civil law, the Catholic religion, and the French language in the administration of British Quebec. This also played a huge part in allowing the survival of the French fact within Quebec. The US made no such allowances for the Spanish settlers it conquered in the Southwest - except for a few token allowances for the Spanish language in New Mexico which dwindled away pretty fast (similar to what happened with Manitoba in Canada).

The Quebec Act came about because Quebec was in this sweet spot, in terms of strategic/economic value. The only reason why the British bothered to conquer Quebec from the French was because of the possible military threat the French posed to Britain's other North American possessions. Other than that, London didn't really give a crap about Quebec. So they needed to control it militarily, but didn't want to spend any resources or money to keep it. The French settlers were a sizeable enough population that a forced assimilation or ethnic cleansing campaign would have meant needing to keep a somewhat sizeable British military force permanently garrisoned in Quebec to suppress revolts, and Quebec wasn't worth the cost to do so, from the British POV.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Using the most international word of the English language: Fuck the anglo minority in Quebec. They’re not the Last of the Mohicans. No great cultural loss is going to happen with their disappearance. More like the thorn hurts less as they’ve faded and accepted reality.

If one was born post-Bill 101, there is basically no reason to not be functionally bilingual in that province. The crying of old-timers who couldn’t be arsed to adapt in 5 decades is a braying not missed by myself. Quebec is a French-speaking province, period. Fini.

Sure, one has to deal with the out of province folks, but the Swiss model of language certainly has an appeal to it.

Most ROCers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's anglophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

ROCers side with them automatically because they speak the same language and are seen as passionate allies of Canada within Quebec.

But they're not really helping the Canadian cause here.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most ROCers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's anglophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

ROCers side with them automatically because they speak the same language and are seen as passionate allies of Canada within Quebec.

But they're not really helping the Canadian cause here.

Most Quebeckers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's francophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

But they're not really helping the Quebecois cause here.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Most Quebeckers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's francophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

But they're not really helping the Quebecois cause here.

Haha.

I predicted this exact response in my mind as I was writing my own post.

I still stand by what I said.

[Nashe]

Canada: The Matryoshka Doll of Perceived Oppression.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Haha.

I predicted this exact response in my mind as I was writing my own post.

I still stand by what I said.

Well, if your opinion is that the anglophone minority in Quebec is completely illegitimate (despite being present for nearly 250 years), and deserves to be actively suppressed, with no guarantee of linguistic rights beyond grudgingly allowed constitutional mandates, then I don't want to hear you complain any more about the state of francophone minorities elsewhere in Canada.

If your dream is strict territorial unilingualism (either within or outside of the Canadian federation), then so be it. Just expect a similar response in the ROC.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Canada: The Matryoshka Doll of Perceived Oppression.

I am so oppressed. Can't even go to the IGA without wearing a squarehead emblem embroidered on my coat. Have to go to the English checkout line.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by harls

I am so oppressed. Can't even go to the IGA without wearing a squarehead emblem embroidered on my coat. Have to go to the English checkout line.

Do they have an English checkout line???

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Most ROCers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's anglophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

ROCers side with them automatically because they speak the same language and are seen as passionate allies of Canada within Quebec.

But they're not really helping the Canadian cause here.

One can say the same about a segment of New Brunswick's Acadian population; how their antagonistic behaviour is detrimental to the unity of the province.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Most Quebeckers seemingly have no idea just how detrimental the antagonistic behaviour of a largish segment of Quebec's francophone community has been, and continues to be, to the unity of the country.

But they're not really helping the Quebecois cause here.

Yeah but the huge difference is that for one group it’s what they’re supposed to want to avoid while for the other it’s the opposite.

Anglos from the Non side who are detrimental to Canadian unity = counterproductive and idiotic

Nationalist Québécois who are detrimental to Canadian unity = things going as planned

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

One can say the same about a segment of New Brunswick's Acadian population; how their antagonistic behaviour is detrimental to the unity of the province.

It has certainly helped to coalesce anglophone pollical support around the Blaine Higgs PC government. The Liberals are widely viewed as the Nouveau Parti Acadien, controlled by the SAANB. If Higgs were a less antagonistic Premier, the Acadian population could have been shut out of power for generations.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Do they have an English checkout line???

Shh-hhh; don't tell the Quebecois(e) that IGA is owned by that nasty Anglo corporation out of Stellarton, NS.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Shh-hhh; don't tell the Quebecois(e) that IGA is owned by that nasty Anglo corporation out of Stellarton, NS.

Sacre Bleu. C'est impossible!!!

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

If your dream is strict territorial unilingualism (either within or outside of the Canadian federation), then so be it. Just expect a similar response in the ROC.

It is basically the case. With the exception of New Brunswick, all others provinces are unilingual. ROC is more English that Québec is French.

[harls]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Do they have an English checkout line???

Can you imagine liojack using it for expedited service since it would be woefully underused?