Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

The British mistake was allowing the Catholic faith and Napoleonic code to survive.

There was... no Napoleonic Code, because Napoleon was born... 9 years after the conquest of Canada by the British.

What you mean is the "coutume de Paris". France before the French Revolution had, unlike England, different laws and legal codes in each province. England had a unified law (that's the "common" in "common law") since the Middle Ages, but this wasn't the case in France. In the South of France, the old Roman written law was still used. In the north of France, customary laws going back to the Germanic invasions were used. Each province had its own customary law.

When Canada was settled by the French, customary laws in northern France had already stopped being purely oral laws, and had been written in legal codes. One of these was the "coutume de Paris", the customary law of Paris and its region, which had a great influence over the rest of France due to the importance of Paris.

When New France was created, they decided that the "coutume de Paris" would be the law that would apply in New France. That's the one they still use in Québec today (with many modifications since 1760 of course).

In France, after the French Revolution, Napoleon gathered the most prominent lawyers and law professors in France, and they created the Civil Code in 1804, which took the best of northern customary laws and southern Roman written law to create a unified civil law for all of France. The Civil Code draws a lot from the coutume de Paris, which is why there are many similarities between the civil law of Québec and the civil law of France, but it is not the coutume de Paris. It is a mix of the various laws that existed across France.

So in a nutshell, Québec doesn't have and has never had the Napoleonic Code.

As for Catholicism, it's not like the British had a choice! Of course they wanted to outlaw Catholicism after the conquest in 1760, but they soon realized it was impossible for a few hundred British officials to hold a large province of 80,000 Catholics if you denied them their religion and made them a restive population. And very soon after the conquest, tensions arose in the 13 British colonies, who didn't want to pay for that war of conquest (Americans... have they ever changed?), so London needed to have a quiet Canada in order to deal with the 13 colonies, which is why they officially recognized Catholicism in Québec.

It was never a "good gesture" or kindness. It was just cold, hard politics. The French Canadians were just lucky that the 13 colonies decided to rebel against London at that time.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yep, especially seeing how liberty of religion was among the core principles for the Americans of the time. I think it wouldn’t have taken much of a British attempt to eliminate Catholicism to have “Canada” (St. Lawrence Valley) joining the American Revolution.

The French Canadians were approached several times by representatives of the 13 colonies to join them, but the French Canadians turned down all their offers, because they were satisfied with the deal reached with the British (Catholic religion and French civil law, no interference in the seigneurie system).

One can only wonder what would have happened to the French Canadians if they had joined the 13 colonies. Perhaps assimilated like Louisiana today...

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

The idea French is threatened in Quebec seems ridiculous.

At a micro level and for the next 10-20 years, no, it's not threatened. At the macro level and over the next 2-3 centuries, yes, it is threatened. How could it be any different when it's such a small language isolate in an Anglophone ocean.

[Acajack]

Things can change faster than we might think, especially in a high immigration, demographically fluid country like Canada.

[Acajack]

I also should mention that in the woke 2020s, if we aren't allowed to say anything about specific groups that we're not a part of, then surely non-francophones shouldn't be telling francophones what the status and health of French is in Canada.

Just sayin'...

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

At a micro level and for the next 10-20 years, no, it's not threatened. At the macro level and over the next 2-3 centuries, yes, it is threatened. How could it be any different when it's such a small language isolate in an Anglophone ocean.

Unless there is a concerted effort to wipe out a language, and even then, it's really hard for such a large and regionally dominant language to be wiped out. I mean Ukraine was flooded with immigrants, was banned, had a genocide, and is arguably a dialect of the larger language and still survived 80 years of totalitarian occupation. The fear seems way overblown.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Unless there is a concerted effort to wipe out a language, and even then, it's really hard for such a large and regionally dominant language to be wiped out. I mean Ukraine was flooded with immigrants, was banned, had a genocide, and is arguably a dialect of the larger language and still survived 80 years of totalitarian occupation. The fear seems way overblown.

1- the Ukrainian language is greatly diminished compared to how it was 100 years ago. Many people in Ukraine don't speak Ukrainian anymore. If the situation of French in Québec was like the situation of Ukrainian in Ukraine, the Québécois would be up in arms.

2- you can't seriously compare the dynamism of the Russian language with the dynamism of the English language in North America. The strength of the English language in North America is much stronger than what any dictatorship could possibly ever achieve. And it's all achieved via the liberal forces of the free market, capitalism, and the entertainment society, which makes it much harder to fight than a language imposed by a dictatorship.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

1- the Ukrainian language is greatly diminished compared to how it was 100 years ago. Many people in Ukraine don't speak Ukrainian anymore. If the situation of French in Québec was like the situation of Ukrainian in Ukraine, the Québécois would be up in arms.

2- you can't seriously compare the dynamism of the Russian language with the dynamism of the English language in North America. The strength of the English language in North America is much stronger than what any dictatorship could possibly ever achieve. And it's all achieved via the liberal forces of the free market, capitalism, and the entertainment society, which makes it much harder to fight than a language imposed by a dictatorship.

1) For sure it's not as strong as it should be don't get me wrong but it was literally banned. People were killed for using it.

2) It was basically the same as English in the Soviet Union. Music culture etc. In fact French has a full cultural array that Ukrainian didn't have. I think the imposed by a dictator thing is true as people like resisting things for sure. Starting to say the world cool is no different than what is happening to every language across the world. The island effect seems irrelevant.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

but it was literally banned. People were killed for using it

The insidious forces of capitalism can be much, MUCH stronger than a dictatorship. For example, the most brutal tsarist dictatorship was never able to extirpate the Polish language, whereas the mere forces of capitalism were able to completely eradicate the Breton language (which, contrary to urban myth, did not disappear because it was outlawed in French schools... in fact the Breton language experienced its great decline in the 1950-1970 period, when most of these policies had been lifted, but the pressure of modern society, the need to speak French to integrate in the modern economy, etc, led the Breton families to not transmit the language to their children).

I think you greatly underestimate the effect a free society can have on languages.

In any case, you should listen to the Francophone natives of Québec/French Canada in this thread. They all point to the danger of language erosion, as far as I can tell.

[Acajack]

We have serious problems and challenges but I don't envy the linguistic situation of Ukrainians or even Catalans. Both have barely 50% of the population on their territory that are native speakers of the national language.

Even Volodymyr Zalenskyy himself is a native Russian speaker and learned Ukrainian for his career.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also should mention that in the woke 2020s, if we aren't allowed to say anything about specific groups that we're not a part of, then surely non-francophones shouldn't be telling francophones what the status and health of French is in Canada.

Just sayin'...

You don't believe that though so don't try and play that card. I don't see any examples evidence or even anecdotes that require being a Francophone. Sure I don't know the feeling of being on Air Canada and not getting French service or losing a job as a 16 year old student because you don't speak English or losing a promotion for the same reason. But all of these things could be true in many European countries and sure there are fears of losing their language there too but draconian laws seem irrelevant to the actual health of a language. The Dutch allow English only workplaces, massive immigration and service workers who don't speak Dutch and nobody is arguing they will lose their language.

Sure the Federal Service woke mob says Francophones don't count anymore for positive discrimination and there I believe you have a point. It's a big debate in the public service right now as Francophones were the favored minority and now are just more white males.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I also should mention that in the woke 2020s, if we aren't allowed to say anything about specific groups that we're not a part of, then surely non-francophones shouldn't be telling francophones what the status and health of French is in Canada.

Just sayin'...

My concern is with the status of English in Quebec, and the state enforced downward trajectory that I foresee.

I rejoice that Quebec remains a secure homeland for the French language.

I just do not want to see further harm to the anglophone minority in the province.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

But all of these things could be true in many European countries and sure there are fears of losing their language there too

I know no European country where people are afraid of losing their language as long as they have statehood and it's their national language. The only people in Europe who are afraid of losing their languages are those speaking minority languages in larger states with more powerful national languages, such as the Catalans in Spain, the Welsh in the UK, the Frisians in The Netherlands, etc. Which is exactly the position of the Québécois: a minority language group in a larger Anglophone country called Canada.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I think you greatly underestimate the effect a free society can have on languagesl.

Why am I not surprised to see New Brisavoine arguing in favour of dictatorship and repression to further the elimination of English in the province of Quebec.

Might I remind you that Canada is not your country.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

My concern is with the status of English in Quebec, and the state enforced downward trajectory that I foresee.

I just do not want to see further harm to the anglophone minority in the province.

Using the most international word of the English language: Fuck the anglo minority in Quebec. They’re not the Last of the Mohicans. No great cultural loss is going to happen with their disappearance. More like the thorn hurts less as they’ve faded and accepted reality.

If one was born post-Bill 101, there is basically no reason to not be functionally bilingual in that province. The crying of old-timers who couldn’t be arsed to adapt in 5 decades is a braying not missed by myself. Quebec is a French-speaking province, period. Fini.

Sure, one has to deal with the out of province folks, but the Swiss model of language certainly has an appeal to it.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Why am I not surprised to see New Brisavoine arguing in favour of dictatorship and repression to further the elimination of English in the province of Quebec.

Why am I not surprised to see MonctonRad twisting words...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Why am I not surprised to see MonctonRad twisting words...

Read your own words. You seem to believe that a free society is "problematic."

[Kilgore Trout]

Hands up if you're an anglophone in Quebec and not some ROCer projecting their anxieties?

The reality is that if you are an anglo in 2024 Quebec, there are four ways of describing your existence:

• You are fluent or fluent enough in French

• You are actively learning French

• You tried learning French, got to a basic or intermediate level but couldn't go further, and you're resigned to that kind of muddling along

• You are an angryphone

The idea that anglos are some kind of oppressed minority is absurd. It's easier here to be a unilingual anglophone than in almost every European or Latin American country.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

And Ontario continues to expand its French Language services. Sarnia will become the 27th designated bilingual service area in the province.

Regarding personal medical files, if the patient resides in one of the 26 current bilingual service areas, or if the institution has been designated to provide bilingual service, patients have the right to choose the official language of service, which includes patient communications, patient care plans, patient information. So, Francophone Ontario do have the right to have their medical files in French.

I will have to ask my family members in Sarnia who speak French at home if they were involved in trying to get the designation. I bet they were. I believe Sarnia has a higher number of francophones percentage-wise compared to London which has been designated a bilingual service area for quite awhile.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I know no European country where people are afraid of losing their language as long as they have statehood and it's their national language. The only people in Europe who are afraid of losing their languages are those speaking minority languages in larger states with more powerful national languages, such as the Catalans in Spain, the Welsh in the UK, the Frisians in The Netherlands, etc. Which is exactly the position of the Québécois: a minority language group in a larger Anglophone country called Canada.

Quebec has its own government that operates only in French. That is what makes the biggest difference. That is not the case for those areas of European countries as far as I'm aware. I know that Wales for example operates mainly in English.

Canadians tend to have more dealings with provincially run and controlled things compared to federal ones. So the vast majority of Quebecers who are francophone are assured that French will be the official and commonly used language. And provinces have control over municipal affairs so they can regulate language at the municipal level as well.