Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

People in Quebec who would want a fully anglicized province like Louisiana are a relatively small minority.

Where opinions differ are on the means that should be used to avoid that fate for us.

Though most people do favour at least some coercive measures to protect French.

From a purely financial perspective, it would likely be great to have Quebec become a normal province — a normal province with real estate values halfway between Ontario and BC, as would be normal

I suppose I wouldn’t vote for that, but it’s factored in my long-term plans just like my Lex Luthor scenario for coastal Florida.

Not even sure what I’d vote in a third referendum; as mentioned earlier I kinda like the idea of not voting, so whatever happens afterwards isn’t my fault.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

From a purely financial perspective, it would likely be great to have Quebec become a normal province — a normal province with real estate values halfway between Ontario and BC, as would be normal

I suppose I wouldn’t vote for that, but it’s factored in my long-term plans just like my Lex Luthor scenario for coastal Florida.

Not even sure what I’d vote in a third referendum; as mentioned earlier I kinda like the idea of not voting, so whatever happens afterwards isn’t my fault.

It's definitely in the realm of possibility that it could happen, but if it does it will be a slow boil like the proverbial frog in the pot on the stove, not as the result of specific decision-making à la "this is the way we're going to go now".

[lio45]

Obviously if it happens it will have been because of inertia and failing to achieve sovereignty during the window in which it was possible. In other words because too many Quebecois didn’t care or had no spine.

P.T. Barnum would have said that no one ever went broke overestimating how spineless the average Quebecois is

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Well, you are finally right about something. This is true, which means that unilingual francophones in Quebec may also have their personal medical records in English if the professional makes the personal choice to write them up in English. So they need to get someone to translate for them if they want to understand. This has made then news in Quebec a few times because people have complained.

Note that of course in Ontario francophones have ZERO rights to have their personal medical files in French.

And Ontario continues to expand its French Language services. Sarnia will become the 27th designated bilingual service area in the province.

Regarding personal medical files, if the patient resides in one of the 26 current bilingual service areas, or if the institution has been designated to provide bilingual service, patients have the right to choose the official language of service, which includes patient communications, patient care plans, patient information. So, Francophone Ontario do have the right to have their medical files in French.

[lio45]

Healthcare is already hard enough to access, if I had a serious health issue in Sarnia I’d likely choose a high quality hospital in Port Huron and pay for it, let alone demand service in French and wait for death or service in French, whichever comes first

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

And Ontario continues to expand its French Language services. Sarnia will become the 27th designated bilingual service area in the province.

Regarding personal medical files, if the patient resides in one of the 26 current bilingual service areas, or if the institution has been designated to provide bilingual service, patients have the right to choose the official language of service, which includes patient communications, patient care plans, patient information. So, Francophone Ontario do have the right to have their medical files in French.

I find this hard to believe and have to look into it. Sounds like a right that would be routinely violated since the others you mentioned always are too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Obviously if it happens it will have been because of inertia and failing to achieve sovereignty during the window in which it was possible. In other words because too many Quebecois didn’t care or had no spine.

P.T. Barnum would have said that no one ever went broke overestimating how spineless the average Quebecois is

So this post reminds us that how the future pans out could be as much related to the decisions we don't make as it is to the decisions we do make.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

Not even sure what I’d vote in a third referendum; as mentioned earlier I kinda like the idea of not voting, so whatever happens afterwards isn’t my fault.

Those referendums trigger a crazily high turnout in general. I remember in 1995, French TV mentioned how high the turnout had been (they even showed some PQ activists in Chicoutimi, if I remember well, bringing old patients from nursing homes in wheelchairs in the cold weather to the polling stations, that's how fervent and decided people where... some of these old people said they wanted to see independence before they die... I guess they haven't).

So I suppose you'll get caught up in the fervor too in the last days of the campaign and go to the polling station too.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

P.T. Barnum would have said that no one ever went broke overestimating how spineless the average Quebecois is

For a spineless people, I'd say they've had remarkable spine in resisting English assimilation. I mean, who seriously in 1760 could have imagined that 250 years later there would still be French speakers in Canada, and 8 million of them to boot! Certainly not the British, who thought they would disappear just as the Dutch and Swedes of New Amsterdam and New Sweden had also disappeared, assimilated by the British.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For a spineless people, I'd say they've had remarkable spine in resisting English assimilation. I mean, who seriously in 1760 could have imagined that 250 years later there would still be French speakers in Canada, and 8 million of them to boot! Certainly not the British, who thought they would disappear just as the Dutch and Swedes of New Amsterdam and New Sweden had also disappeared, assimilated by the British.

I've often used the "accident of history" theory to explain our continued existence, but yeah there is probably resilience and stubbornness that enters into it as well.

I mean even far outside Quebec, you still have small regions like these that still operate (tant bien que mal) primarily in French. At least for the moment - long-term prospects might not be so good but it's still over 250 years for them as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3323...8192?entry=ttu

Zoom out and see where this is.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by lio45

as mentioned earlier I kinda like the idea of not voting, so whatever happens afterwards isn’t my fault.

I don't see it that way. If you don't vote, you can't take credit for the good things that are happening because you didn't vote for it, and you have to take the blame for the bad things because you didn't even try to stop them by voting.

Basically, if you don't vote, you forfeit your right to complain. However, something tell me that somehow you will complain anyway...

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

I guess you must drive with your eyes closed in Ontario with that comment. There's a heck lot more bilingual highway signage in Ontario than Quebec.

With respect to health and social services, English speaking Quebecers do have a legal right to receive health and social services in English. But this right is not absolute: there are limits.

First, to be able to provide English language health and social services, the institution must be designated by the Quebec government.

There is NO right in Quebec for patients to have their health and social services records (files) in English. The general rule is that the person preparing a document for this kind of record, such as a doctor, can decide whether to write it in English or French. However, a health or social services institution does have the option of requiring documents to be written only in French.

I don't drive, so that is a moot point.

About the highway signage, this is my point. Ontario make some superficial efforts to look bilingual while basic services are overwhelmingly offered only in English. Québec, on the other hand, wants to look french and shows unilingual signage but offers services in English, not only by law but for real. The great majority of healthcare workers speak English and can offer services in English. This is not superficial, this is depth. And this is what Francophone are complaining about: English Canada bragging about some token recognition of French while not offering real services in French (at least at the provincial level), while Québec wants to preserve its french image but still offers much better services in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I don't see it that way. If you don't vote, you can't take credit for the good things that are happening because you didn't vote for it, and you have to take the blame for the bad things because you didn't even try to stop them by voting.

Basically, if you don't vote, you forfeit your right to complain. However, something tell me that somehow you will complain anyway...

It would be extremely odd for someone so interested and knowledgeable about politics to pass up an opportunity to have a say in the most important political decision that his generation would be called upon to make.

If I may tease a bit, not being able to make up one's mind one way or the other would be precisely the definition of "spineless" as mentioned in the PT Barnum reference above!

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

For a spineless people, I'd say they've had remarkable spine in resisting English assimilation. I mean, who seriously in 1760 could have imagined that 250 years later there would still be French speakers in Canada, and 8 million of them to boot! Certainly not the British, who thought they would disappear just as the Dutch and Swedes of New Amsterdam and New Sweden had also disappeared, assimilated by the British.

The British mistake was allowing the Catholic faith and Napoleonic code to survive. The Scottish merchants then smothered the Francophones economically and ....

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

The British mistake was allowing the Catholic faith and Napoleonic code to survive. The Scottish merchants then smothered the Francophones economically and ....

Yeah well the history behind that is that the British made the calculation that they had to be at least a bit nice to the French in Canada in the 1760s and 1770s so as to not have two revolutions on their hands: one in the 13 colonies to the south and one up here.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've often used the "accident of history" theory to explain our continued existence, but yeah there is probably resilience and stubbornness that enters into it as well.

I mean even far outside Quebec, you still have small regions like these that still operate (tant bien que mal) primarily in French. At least for the moment - long-term prospects might not be so good but it's still over 250 years for them as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@44.3323...8192?entry=ttu

Zoom out and see where this is.

I have driven that area many times and it definitely has an old Francophone feel and its not only the Churches. Keep in mind though the Acadians are NOT Quebecois. I tried to teach some Montreal based Bosses that French Canada started in that part of Nova Scotia but the cope was strong and disbelieve pure.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

I have driven that area many times and it definitely has an old Francophone feel and its not only the Churches. Keep in mind though the Acadians are NOT Quebecois. I tried to teach some Montreal based Bosses that French Canada started in that part of Nova Scotia but the cope was strong and disbelieve pure.

I have family roots in Acadian Nova Scotia.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah well the history behind that is that the British made the calculation that they had to be at least a bit nice to the French in Canada in the 1760s and 1770s so as to not have two revolutions on their hands: one in the 13 colonies to the south and one up here.

Yep, especially seeing how liberty of religion was among the core principles for the Americans of the time. I think it wouldn’t have taken much of a British attempt to eliminate Catholicism to have “Canada” (St. Lawrence Valley) joining the American Revolution.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

It would be extremely odd for someone so interested and knowledgeable about politics to pass up an opportunity to have a say in the most important political decision that his generation would be called upon to make.

If I may tease a bit, not being able to make up one's mind one way or the other would be precisely the definition of "spineless" as mentioned in the PT Barnum reference above!

Thanks for the compliment?

As for your second paragraph, I would reply that even the most spineful person can be on the fence when the pros and cons seem to balance each other.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by lio45

Obviously if it happens it will have been because of inertia and failing to achieve sovereignty during the window in which it was possible. In other words because too many Quebecois didn’t care or had no spine.

P.T. Barnum would have said that no one ever went broke overestimating how spineless the average Quebecois is

This seems unfair. The idea French is threatened in Quebec seems ridiculous. Now maybe there is a risk of needing English for many jobs so something like Italian speakers in Switzerland but even that seems a long way off.