TCH east of Nipigon (La route transcanadienne à l'est de Nipigon)

[Dengler Avenue]

Do we all agree then that both 11 and 17 should be upgraded/improved where the terrain's hilly?

[Dengler Avenue]

I think I’ve asked this before, but I already forgot the answer.

As I was looking at Highway 417 Arnprior Bypass, the question came back to me:
Under what circumstances/due to what factors will a bypass wreck/be neutral to/benefit the economy of the town?

Highway 400 bypass wrecked Nobel but Parry Sound seems just fine.

Highway 11 bypass didn’t hurt either Sundridge or South River. (Or is that true?)

Highway 417 bypass turns Arnprior into one of the fastest growing community in the outskirts of Ottawa.

One of the possible factor, IMO, is proximity to another town of similar (if not bigger size). Nobel’s too close to Parry Sound so it got wrecked. The towns on the former alignment of Highway 11 aren’t too close to one another so they’re just fine. Arnprior’s close enough to the tech hub at Kanata that people that want a quite rural life can commute. (I can’t say anything about Carleton Place or Perth yet until Highway 7 4-lane freeway goes that far.)

Any other factors?

[ScreamingViking]

I don't think there is an "answer" -- it's specific to the town or village, its dependency on the highway, the sectors that fuel the local economy, and the place's role/importance in the region.

[Dengler Avenue]

By the way, I’ve read somewhere that there’s a good poutine place somewhere in North Bay, and I may go visit the city next weekend. Does anyone know of such place and where?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think I’ve asked this before, but I already forgot the answer.

As I was looking at Highway 417 Arnprior Bypass, the question came back to me:
Under what circumstances/due to what factors will a bypass wreck/be neutral to/benefit the economy of the town?

Highway 400 bypass wrecked Nobel but Parry Sound seems just fine.

Highway 11 bypass didn’t hurt either Sundridge or South River. (Or is that true?)

Highway 417 bypass turns Arnprior into one of the fastest growing community in the outskirts of Ottawa.

One of the possible factor, IMO, is proximity to another town of similar (if not bigger size). Nobel’s too close to Parry Sound so it got wrecked. The towns on the former alignment of Highway 11 aren’t too close to one another so they’re just fine. Arnprior’s close enough to the tech hub at Kanata that people that want a quite rural life can commute. (I can’t say anything about Carleton Place or Perth yet until Highway 7 4-lane freeway goes that far.)

Any other factors?

Those places were going down hill, this just helped it. It didn't cause it.

[Loco101]

I find that the bypasses may hurt some businesses but they often help many others. Plus, the businesses are notified a number of years before construction of a bypass even begins.

But I do remember there being a Tim Hortons/Wendy's in Nobel that closed right after the Nobel bypass opened. The restaurant complex wasn't very old and I'm not sure why they chose to build there. Normally the MTO works with businesses and tells of plans.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

I think I’ve asked this before, but I already forgot the answer.

As I was looking at Highway 417 Arnprior Bypass, the question came back to me:
Under what circumstances/due to what factors will a bypass wreck/be neutral to/benefit the economy of the town?

Bypass wrecks town:
- Town is a natural refuel/rest point for traffic between two points. Otherwise, people keep going until they find somewhere more convenient. The town has minimal other economic activity to support locals. Examples: Nobel, Dryden.
- Existing highway already avoids downtown area.

Bypass improves town:
- Existing highway has a high volume of traffic and/or funnels traffic through downtown streets ill-equipped to handle volume safely. Most towns along the 401 in Eastern Ontario are like this.
- Larger scale stops on the outskirts of town are more conducive to handling the larger volume of people travelling.
- Town has an alternate economic raison d'etre not directly related to the highway and excessive traffic hinders movement for that business.
- Town is within commuting distance of a larger urban centre

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Loco101

I find that the bypasses may hurt some businesses but they often help many others. Plus, the businesses are notified a number of years before construction of a bypass even begins.

But I do remember there being a Tim Hortons/Wendy's in Nobel that closed right after the Nobel bypass opened. The restaurant complex wasn't very old and I'm not sure why they chose to build there. Normally the MTO works with businesses and tells of plans.

I suspect the business owner didn't anticipate the change of heart the Ontario government had between the late 1990s and 2003, when the PCs committed to extending highway 400 beyond Parry Sound.

I'm not exactly sure when it opened, but I remember it being in that era.

[Dengler Avenue]

Business owners should know by now that locating the business on an arterial highway is a bad idea. Either they will have to relocate, or the highway gets relocated.

Edit: Then again, if the main highway goes through downtown, it’s a hard call.
The only thing that the government can really do to mitigate such impact is to relocate the businesses to an interchange. Drivers see the scale of the plaza, and they will come.

[Loco101]

For the former Tim Hortons/Wendy's in Nobel: I think there may have originally been plans to have an interchange where it was located and somehow it got scrapped. Obviously without the interchange there would barely be any traffic. The location is right by Portage Lake and is halfway between two existing interchanges. Maybe somebody who lives nearby remembers.

[sonysnob]

Sturgeon Falls would be an interesting community to debate the merits of a bypass for. I’m not quite sure how it would fare. It’s close enough to both North Bay and Sudbury that it’s probably reasonably self sufficient. I don’t know though, certainly it wouldn’t be an inexpensive bypass to build given the river and the topography to the north.

[Dengler Avenue]

My proposal/suggestion is to have 11 concurrent with 17 all the way to the east side of Stugeon Falls, then 11 exits north and joins the current alignment north of Marten River. South of the 11/17 interchange (4-way) will be a huge plaza where all the businesses along the current alignment up the Thibeault Hill, plus the truck inspection station, will be relocated. I will draw it when I have time. I hope that can help the town.
Ps: SF’s much closer to North Bay. I think a lot of people that work in North Bay live in SF.

[Dengler Avenue]

(IMO, if we’re gonna twin the entire 17, we should twin 11 at least to Engleheart. If we’re to twin 11 then 17 west of Shabaqua Corners, we should twin 17 at least to Batchawana Bay. After all, twinning highways in Northern Ontario is no cheap business.)

[wave46]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

Sturgeon Falls would be an interesting community to debate the merits of a bypass for. I’m not quite sure how it would fare. It’s close enough to both North Bay and Sudbury that it’s probably reasonably self sufficient. I don’t know though, certainly it wouldn’t be an inexpensive bypass to build given the river and the topography to the north.

I live in North Bay and Sturgeon Falls is a commuter town to here and Sudbury. Most of the businesses there along the highway are supported by the local population, not the traffic passing through.

Most of the traffic on the stretch of highway 17 between North Bay and Sudbury is a mix of local commuters and people travelling between the two cities. The distance between the two points is relatively short, so stopping in Sturgeon Falls doesn't make much sense.

Any bypass would be quite the challenge due to terrain and would likely not be worth the cost involved, IMO.

[Dengler Avenue]

Isn’t the area immediately north of the town just flat farmlands?

Granted, there’s a new river crossing to be constructed, but I’ve always thought the hardest part will be negotiating with Nipissing 10 (politics) and twinning through its territory (mountain on one side, lake on the other).

Ps: Since there are already 4 lanes inside the town though, the idea of converting that stretch to a full-fledged freeway is quite the temptation. It’s just gonna be 20 km of 4-lane freeway divided by concrete median barrier with settlements on both sides, from Cache Bay to Meadowside.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Isn’t the area immediately north of the town just flat farmlands?

Granted, there’s a new river crossing to be constructed, but I’ve always thought the hardest part will be negotiating with Nipissing 10 (politics) and twinning through its territory (mountain on one side, lake on the other).

Ps: Since there are already 4 lanes inside the town though, the idea of converting that stretch to a full-fledged freeway is quite the temptation. It’s just gonna be 20 km of 4-lane freeway divided by concrete median barrier with settlements on both sides, from Cache Bay to Meadowside.

Your version was much more ambitious. I was just referring to crossing the river and bypassing the town itself. Even that would require substantial structures.

Converting the 4-lane section through Sturgeon Falls to freeway would basically annihilate a large potion of the town.

Having driven that stretch of highway frequently, I don't really see the need for it. I could support more passing lanes (or a 4-lane undivided highway) between Sturgeon Falls and North Bay, but that's about it.

[Dengler Avenue]

Well Kenora Bypass and Sudbury Bypass would have been even more ambitious then. What can you do when you have to bypass a large built-up area...

[wave46]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

Well Kenora Bypass and Sudbury Bypass would have been even more ambitious then. What can you do when you have to bypass a large built-up area...

The only place that really might need the bypass is Sturgeon Falls itself. From the outskirts of Cache Bay to Golf Course Rd. is about 8km. Otherwise, the roadway has a 90km/h speed limit and flows well.

I don't think a 4-lane section is needed either. A super-2 would be fine.

The old alignment of 17 through Kenora went right through downtown and wound through the town - as I mentioned in my post above, avoiding downtown tends to improve towns along major routes.

The Sudbury bypass was necessary to avoid a city of 100,000+ people, so it had to be more ambitious.

Both of those bypasses had advantages beyond shaving 5-10 minutes off a journey.

My anecdotal experience is that most people don't mind the section through Sturgeon Falls.

[Dengler Avenue]

I don't either. When I was driving from Coniston eastward at 9:45 pm on a Saturday, Sturgeon Falls was such a nice break from driving in the dark rural area. I felt like I returned to civilization.

If we do wanna realign 11 east of SF, though, the interchange between 11 and 17 has to be 4-lane divided while the rest can be super-2.

Ps: As for Pembroke-Petawawa Bypass, why is no one asking MTO to turn all the lights into overpasses or interchanges in the interim??

[sonysnob]

Of course people are asking for the traffic lights to be removed in Pembroke. Just because someone sends a letter to the MTO doesnt mean a project instantly gets funded.