West Gatineau Tramway & Downtown Loop | Proposed

[Hybrid247]

I don't like the Wellington option tbh. It would make the line susceptible to numerous service disruptions, including disruptions from protests and other major events on Parliament Hill. I also don't think the loop idea will ever come to fruition as there's just so many potential obstacles for the routing between Elgin and Alexandra Bridge. I can't see Sussex becoming tram only ROW and there's certainly not enough space for both tram and 2 lanes of traffic. I think the tunnel is the better option for service quality and reliability.

[Aylmer]

I'm not as concerned with the protests. It's a very occasional disruption - maybe 3-4 times per year (Canada Day, and March for Life are the only big ones I can think of), most are only on Wellington itself for a few minutes, and never during the peak hours. In fact, I can't think of a single time there was a mass protest or event at 5pm on a weekday.

The times that Wellington is blocked in front of the Hill, simply run the trams as far as Lyon or Bank. Passengers going further can walk or transfer to the CL. This is already the case for the STO.

As a transit user, it'd be a far greater inconvenience to have to go up and down 4-5 flights of stairs every ride for a tunnel. For the convenience, I'd happily put up with occasionally having to walk an extra five minutes on handful of off-peak hours during the entire year.

[kwoldtimer]

Why is a tunnel under Sparks and option, but not a tunnel under Wellington?

[Aylmer]

That's a good question. I suspect it may have to do with existing service tunnels and future underground links in the parliamentary precinct.

[p_xavier]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why is a tunnel under Sparks and option, but not a tunnel under Wellington?

Easier connections to Line 1?

[Horus]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why is a tunnel under Sparks and option, but not a tunnel under Wellington?

Originally Posted by p_xavier

Easier connections to Line 1?

I'm pretty sure it's that. One of the expressed considerations in the framework of the survey and shortlisting of options is that they were looking to provide ease of transfer to Line 1 as much as possible. Having a parallel tunnel just 1 short block away from the Line 1 tunnel would enable that.

[corynv]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Why is a tunnel under Sparks and option, but not a tunnel under Wellington?

Because it's closer to have a tunnel connection to the tunnel under queen (1 block, vs 2 blocks). Plus security concerns in the parliament area (mainly during construction i'd assume). Also, there isn't much on wellington itself. Most people who work in the CBD work more south, so having the line that serves gatineau commuters go closer to where people actually work is better.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I don't like the Wellington option tbh. It would make the line susceptible to numerous service disruptions, including disruptions from protests and other major events on Parliament Hill. I also don't think the loop idea will ever come to fruition as there's just so many potential obstacles for the routing between Elgin and Alexandra Bridge. I can't see Sussex becoming tram only ROW and there's certainly not enough space for both tram and 2 lanes of traffic. I think the tunnel is the better option for service quality and reliability.

Aylmer explained how we could deal with the occasional disruptions from protest and events: just terminate the line at Lyon or Bank and turn it around.

As for the loop, the Trams could take up Mackenzie or Sussex and leave the other to cars. If Alexandra is eventually closed to car traffic competently, that would free up road space for trams.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Hybrid247

I don't like the Wellington option tbh. It would make the line susceptible to numerous service disruptions, including disruptions from protests and other major events on Parliament Hill. I also don't think the loop idea will ever come to fruition as there's just so many potential obstacles for the routing between Elgin and Alexandra Bridge. I can't see Sussex becoming tram only ROW and there's certainly not enough space for both tram and 2 lanes of traffic. I think the tunnel is the better option for service quality and reliability.

Well obviously. It is worth the huge cost? That is the question. Does any city of 300k have a tunnel to connect to an adjacent city the size of Ottawa? Even in Europe I think this would be seen as extravagant.

[OTownandDown]

Ottawa just spent 2 billion building a tunnel through downtown... To get the trains off of the surface... after designing...and then cancelling at great expense...a surface tram.

So now after finally removing STO buses from Wellington, we're going to have STO trams? Not only that, but they would force the closure of the only east-west road that travels directly from Westboro to Vanier? Why don't we just close the length of Alexandre-Tache while we're at it?!

Indignation aside, I like the idea of limiting Wellington traffic as much as possible, but not for an STO tram so people can have inexpensive housing and commute to Ottawa fully avoiding OC Transpo. For that reason, I support the Sparks proposal. Besides, Sparks is closer to the centre of the CBD, not Wellington. People would alight from these Wellington trams on the 'north side of Wellington' and then immediately cross south and have to walk down, sometimes 4 blocks, to their offices.

And also, Lyon was always going to be the transfer station. There's no need to link all these stations.

And also, the only way an STO tram becomes a downtown circle route is by tunneling around the Chateau Laurier. If it's already in a tunnel on Sparks, it can tunnel under confusion square and continue towards the new Alexandra bridge, which will probably not be built properly for a new tram, and will need extensive upgrades. (Note I've ignored the small issue of the canal, the sinkhole, and etc.)

[J.OT13]

My concern, with the tunnel, is capacity. I know this seems counter-intuitive.

The system will be at street-level for most of its route, so no matter if it's street level or underground downtown will have no impact on capacity.

However, say we have 50 meter platforms running 48 meter Spirits every 2 minutes. Capacity would be 9000 per hour per direction. The problem is, there is just one direction. All traffic originating from Gatineau is coming through the tunnel and ending at Parliament before the train turns back with a handful of Ottawa passengers heading to Hull.

Should we choose the Wellington option, if/when a loop is built, full trains from Gatineau would be coming from both directions, still 9000 phpd, but now with two directions, so the capacity of the line is now up to 18,000 total. This future-proofs the downtown portion to allow for multiple Gatineau lines coming in.

It's like cutting off one of the branches of the Yonge-University Line in Toronto. Yonge terminates at Union and the University branch is never built. Capacity is halved.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

And also, the only way an STO tram becomes a downtown circle route is by tunneling around the Chateau Laurier. If it's already in a tunnel on Sparks, it can tunnel under confusion square and continue towards the new Alexandra bridge, which will probably not be built properly for a new tram, and will need extensive upgrades. (Note I've ignored the small issue of the canal, the sinkhole, and etc.)

if they build the tunnel with this in mind, then the tunnel makes more sense. However, it seems the STO is only considering the possible loop with the Wellington option, with the tunnel terminating at Parliament for eternity.

I addressed the sink hole/poor quality of soit issue in this post. Essentially, it's not an issue because the poor soil quality starts after the Château (roughly).

[Aylmer]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

Indignation aside, I like the idea of limiting Wellington traffic as much as possible, but not for an STO tram so people can have inexpensive housing and commute to Ottawa fully avoiding OC Transpo.

Just wait until you find out about the Ottawa extending LRT to the less expensive outer suburbs.

Besides, Sparks is closer to the centre of the CBD, not Wellington. People would alight from these Wellington trams on the 'north side of Wellington' and then immediately cross south and have to walk down, sometimes 4 blocks, to their offices.

You're right on an x/y plane, but if you add the third dimension of depth, then it's probably still easier to walk an extra 50m to Wellington (roughly 60 seconds) than to descend 4-5 storeys down under Sparks (60-120 seconds).

[PHrenetic]

Good Day. My two cents ......

IMHO STO is giving us (and the Feds) a pair of (from different points of view) unpalatable options, and forcing a final design that will fulfill their needs (duh)
with a cost contribution system involving greater financial input from the variety of Feds (NCC, PWC, BoC, Heritage, Infrastructure, Parliamentary Precinct, Cabinet as a whole, etc)
to get the Ottawa side done (and done right).

As noted, NCC will object big time to Wellington, above or below.
Parliamentary Precinct will not allow use of the internal roadway parallel to Wellington (security - duh). (This is part of their Wellington scenarios.)
Ottawa will object big time to loosing Wellington as an E-W arterial.
Ottawa and NCC will object to Sparks surface. Plus it is not conducive to any future loop over Alexandra.

To me (silly me) the only viable option (with looking for a loop to Alexandra) is a Sparks tunnel. Let me expand, because this is possible.

So long as they take over the BoC vaults and offices extending under Sparks, then entry to under Sparks north of the Cathedral and west of Garden of the Provinces, and thence straight along Sparks to a tunnel linked pair of stations at Lyon and O'Connor-Metcalfe is easy (linking to the C-Line Lyon and Parl stations respectively). This can be built 'easily' because they now know what they are getting into, from our misadventures there. And it will do for a fair amount of time, unless the Feds really want to get the next stage done. This becomes the more involved part - extending under Elgin south of the Memorial, curving northward to the south and east of the plaza, under the canal (at a much shallower depth than the C-Line), finishing the curve to align to the Chateau tunnel (as deep or shallow as need be), and thence surfacing out northbound to the Alexandra along the existing RoW.
If the Alexandra is rebuilt anytime soon (10 yr timeframe, as already expressed), the accommodation for this becomes very easy.
This can be done, because the C-Line dove so deep to 'try' to avoid most of the sand trench furthur to the east than this will be (misadventure notwithstanding!). So the STO tunnel remains in far more stable rock, above the C-Line tunnel.

As noted, both Ottawa and NCC do not want surface rail. And IMHO, the role of surface 'disruptions' is not to be underestimated - in all of traffic, pedestrian, and 'active' demonstrations.
However, if necessary, I could and would accept surface Sparks, given the proviso of no future for a loop and ending forever at Metcalfe-Elgin, and a forever slow-speed order for the entire length of Sparks St.
It certainly would force both NCC and Ottawa hands to get a Sparks renewal done !

To me, Wellington is a bargaining-chip no-starter, only to force a Fed buy-in for the majority of the cost of the Ottawa run from Portage to Metcalfe, wherever it be.

FWIW.

BTW - I still want to see a T-Line extension across to Tache and/or TdC/Zibi, with links to the STO trams and Rapibus over there.

[movebyleap]

This is a long thread and I'm not sure whether this has already been mentioned, but what about all the above-ground electrical wiring? Do we really want that unsightly stuff directly in front of the parliament buildings? It would be a big FAIL to install a tram on Wellington. Talk about a blight on practically the only iconic street in this city!

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

This is a long thread and I'm not sure whether this has already been mentioned, but what about all the above-ground electrical wiring? Do we really want that unsightly stuff directly in front of the parliament buildings? It would be a big FAIL to install a tram on Wellington. Talk about a blight on practically the only iconic street in this city!

Mentioned earlier in the thread yesterday, and on the STO site: they'd consider battery-powered operations across the Portage bridge and on Wellington.

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

This is a long thread and I'm not sure whether this has already been mentioned, but what about all the above-ground electrical wiring? Do we really want that unsightly stuff directly in front of the parliament buildings? It would be a big FAIL to install a tram on Wellington. Talk about a blight on practically the only iconic street in this city!

1) Tram is not a blight. The blight is a 5-lane car sewer instead of the only iconic street in the city.
2) Also,

[Aylmer]

I think there's too great a fixation on the presence or absence of wires. I totally agree that Wellington should have the highest quality of street design. But overhead wires aren't necessarily incompatible with that.

Case in point, Barcelona also has a Wellington street which looks like this:



Tram / Carrer de Wellington / Barcelona by Rob Jacobs, on Flickr

Despite their Wellington having wires and ours not having any, the Barcelona example is a much more attractive street for a hundred other reasons. I would absolutely love Wellington to look this good, even with wires.

I'm not saying that the wires somehow make it more attractive. Simply that there are many, many more important elements to a beautiful street.

[J.OT13]

Not quite the same. That's a narrow tree lined street. Wires are barely visible. In the Ottawa area, when people think of overhead wires, they think of the Confederation Line mess, built to power 98+ meter trains running at 80-100 km/h.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottaw...-lrt-1.5442342

[Kitchissippi]

Overhead wires are one thing, but downtown Ottawa being the end of the line will require sophisticated switches, modern signalling and ideally the potential to store extra trainsets. TTC streetcar style archaic switching won't cut it here.