Richmond, B.C., considers banning Chinese-only signage

[Acajack]

For someone from Quebec it's certainly a very interesting debate to watch.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Pinion

I would say English actually is threatened in Richmond. I went to a chain restaurant on No 3. road recently and had a difficult time communicating. The place was packed and only one other table had non-Chinese at it.

I've said several times on here that it's up to the people in Richmond and BC to decide on this, but I have a question: can English really be said to be threatened when no native English speakers are switching over to Mandarin/Cantonese as their main language, and no non-Chinese in Vancouver are learning these languages instead (and to the detriment) of English?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've said several times on here that it's up to the people in Richmond and BC to decide on this, but I have a question: can English really be said to be threatened when no native English speakers are switching over to Mandarin/Cantonese as their main language, and no non-Chinese in Vancouver are learning these languages instead (and to the detriment) of English?

Good point. This class consists of, in all likelihood, next to no one. English is completely unthreatened.

Having a huge immigrant community might just mean that more first generation Canadians don't bother learning English, and perhaps more second/third generation Canadians keep their original language. I come from an immigrant family myself and there are a number of 1st/2nd/3rd generation Canadians. Only 1st gen Canadians (obviously) and a small handful of 2nd gen Canadians are completely fluent in the old country's tongue... I guess if Winnipeg had a larger community of immigrants speaking those languages in the style of Richmond, it might get dragged out a bit to 3rd.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

Good point. This class consists of, in all likelihood, next to no one. English is completely unthreatened.

Having a huge immigrant community might just mean that more first generation Canadians don't bother learning English, and perhaps more second/third generation Canadians keep their original language. I come from an immigrant family myself and there are a number of 1st/2nd/3rd generation Canadians. Only 1st gen Canadians (obviously) and a small handful of 2nd gen Canadians are completely fluent in the old country's tongue... I guess if Winnipeg had a larger community of immigrants speaking those languages in the style of Richmond, it might get dragged out a bit to 3rd.

Yeah. It's totally normal for immigrants to use the old country's language when they are between themselves. We'd all do the same, wouldn't we? I likely wouldn't stop speaking French to my wife and kids if I moved to Germany or Thailand...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

For someone from Quebec it's certainly a very interesting debate to watch.

Exactly! From my POV it's a classic case of "sitting back with popcorn" just to watch it evolve. (It's kinda nice to see someone else facing the same problem...)

[esquire]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly! From my POV it's a classic case of "sitting back with popcorn" just to watch it evolve. (It's kinda nice to see someone else facing the same problem...)

It is not quite the "same problem" for the reasons that Acajack pointed out... it's in no way an existential threat. The reaction to the situation in Richmond is basically English speakers baffled by the sight of English being pushed into a secondary role, but on a very socially and geographically limited basis.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

It is not quite the "same problem" for the reasons that Acajack pointed out... it's in no way an existential threat. The reaction to the situation in Richmond is basically English speakers baffled by the sight of English being pushed into a secondary role, but on a very socially and geographically limited basis.

Yes, it's not fully analogous to the situation in Quebec but it's still a (potential) departure from the traditional stance of Anglo-Canada that it's (contrary to Quebec) very laissez-faire, open and relaxed with respect to such things...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by esquire

It is not quite the "same problem" for the reasons that Acajack pointed out... it's in no way an existential threat. The reaction to the situation in Richmond is basically English speakers baffled by the sight of English being pushed into a secondary role, but on a very socially and geographically limited basis.

I'm fully aware of that, which is why I'm okay with either possible outcome, and content with my watching inertia.

It's still a very similar situation, the difference being that the language going out won't be irretrievably gone in the grand scheme of things.

On a "there and now" level, it's very similar. Still a lot of parallels.

i.e. imagine that by waving a magic wand, you replaced English with Chinese in the 9 other provinces and 50 US states, then the exact same situation in historically-English BC (untouched by your magic wand) becomes exactly Quebec's.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, it's not fully analogous to the situation in Quebec but it's still a (potential) departure from the traditional stance of Anglo-Canada that it's (contrary to Quebec) very laissez-faire, open and relaxed with respect to such things...

Isn't it "laissez faire" because it's generally understood that the second and third generations will speak English? The language threshold for first generation immigrants was always fairly low in English Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't it "laissez faire" because it's generally understood that the second and third generations will speak English? The language threshold for first generation immigrants was always fairly low in English Canada.

That's kind of my point. It's not a huge demonstration of magnanimity to be laissez faire when you are basically 100% sure the outcome will be in the direction you desire.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Isn't it "laissez faire" because it's generally understood that the second and third generations will speak English? The language threshold for first generation immigrants was always fairly low in English Canada.

I would agree with this assessment. Although you have to wonder how improved communication and mobility will affect the experience of new arrivals... these days it's very easy to keep a foot in the old world and the new world if you want to.

For instance, in Vancouver you could consume a steady diet of Chinese media and entertainment online, read Chinese books and magazines, socialize in Chinese and practically anyone with a full time job can afford to fly to China at least once every year or two as you can easily find seat sale fares for under $1000 (sometimes well under that amount) from YVR. There is far less impetus to become fluent in English.

Contrast that with the 70s experience (when my mom came to Canada from Eastern Europe)... communications with the homeland were restricted to postal mail when it would take a couple of weeks for a letter or parcel to get to where it was going... long distance calls were exorbitantly expensive, like over a hundred dollars for a quick call. Overseas travel was also prohibitively expensive and hardly any books/magazines/records etc. were exported from behind the Iron Curtain. It's a totally different scenario now.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm fully aware of that, which is why I'm okay with either possible outcome, and content with my watching inertia.

It's still a very similar situation, the difference being that the language going out won't be irretrievably gone in the grand scheme of things.

On a "there and now" level, it's very similar. Still a lot of parallels.

i.e. imagine that by waving a magic wand, you replaced English with Chinese in the 9 other provinces and 50 US states, then the exact same situation in historically-English BC (untouched by your magic wand) becomes exactly Quebec's.

When you consider that it's on a much smaller scale (as esquire pointed out), the situation certainly gives credence to the classic Québécois rebuttal which is: "you guys would do exactly the same, and maybe worse!, if you were in the same situation as us!"

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by esquire

I would agree with this assessment. Although you have to wonder how improved communication and mobility will affect the experience of new arrivals... these days it's very easy to keep a foot in the old world and the new world if you want to.

For instance, in Vancouver you could consume a steady diet of Chinese media and entertainment online, read Chinese books and magazines, socialize in Chinese and practically anyone with a full time job can afford to fly to China at least once every year or two as you can easily find seat sale fares for under $1000 (sometimes well under that amount) from YVR. There is far less impetus to become fluent in English.

I would agree with this. In the modern day of the internet and with multiple specialized (sometmes ethnic) channels on cable, it's entirely possible that a unilingual community could exist for generations in a major Canadian city if the ethnic community has reached a certain critical mass in size (say several tens of thousands). Interactions with the outside broader society could be quite limited, especially if the ethnic community opted for private schooling in their own language for their children.

The question is "should the broader Canadian society tolerate this situation, or should it find ways to force integration"?

A Quebec scenario would be an anglophone enclave in Westmount, connected by internet (and work activity) with the broader anglosphere, and sending their kids to anglophone private schools. This anglophone enclave becomes virtually unassimilatable. Oh wait - this actually does happen in Quebec!

[esquire]

^ Haha

In seriousness though, the thought of ethnic enclaves as described doesn't bother me. It would be a different story if it was a group that was hostile to Canadian society or whatever, but that obviously isn't the case with the different ethnic groups currently residing in Canada.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I would agree with this assessment. Although you have to wonder how improved communication and mobility will affect the experience of new arrivals... these days it's very easy to keep a foot in the old world and the new world if you want to.

For instance, in Vancouver you could consume a steady diet of Chinese media and entertainment online, read Chinese books and magazines, socialize in Chinese and practically anyone with a full time job can afford to fly to China at least once every year or two as you can easily find seat sale fares for under $1000 (sometimes well under that amount) from YVR. There is far less impetus to become fluent in English.

Contrast that with the 70s experience (when my mom came to Canada from Eastern Europe)... communications with the homeland were restricted to postal mail when it would take a couple of weeks for a letter or parcel to get to where it was going... long distance calls were exorbitantly expensive, like over a hundred dollars for a quick call. Overseas travel was also prohibitively expensive and hardly any books/magazines/records etc. were exported from behind the Iron Curtain. It's a totally different scenario now.

Yes, this era and its technology probably have had the effect of slowing down the assimilation process somewhat. Although I do tihnk in the cases of most people it's still what inevitably happens.

From my work with francophone minority groups across Canada (who often have access to a decent amount of stuff in French in general, and are in their "homeland" when you think of it) I can tell you that what pushes assimilation isn't so much a lack of accessibility to stuff from the culture and language, as much as it is a lack of interest.

So even if you put lots of stuff in Mandarin/Cantonese at the disposal of, say, young Chinese-Canadians, it doesn't necessarily mean that the Canadian-born and raised in that community will be that interested in it. They might be a little bit interested (and this may as I said stave off assimilation for a little while longer), but most of them will have moved on to "elsewhere" in their cultural and societal interests, away from "old country" stuff.

That's why a continued immigration flow from the old country of people who were actually raised in the culture (and true native speakers of the language) is the prime factor in keeping immigrant communities' languages and cultures alive. Once you turn off the tap, assimilation quickly accelerates.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Haha

In seriousness though, the thought of ethnic enclaves as described doesn't bother me. It would be a different story if it was a group that was hostile to Canadian society or whatever, but that obviously isn't the case with the different ethnic groups currently residing in Canada.

I can't honestly think of any immigrant groups that are *collectively* hostile to Canadian society at the moment.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I would agree with this. In the modern day of the internet and with multiple specialized (sometmes ethnic) channels on cable, it's entirely possible that a unilingual community could exist for generations in a major Canadian city if the ethnic community has reached a certain critical mass in size (say several tens of thousands). Interactions with the outside broader society could be quite limited, especially if the ethnic community opted for private schooling in their own language for their children.

The question is "should the broader Canadian society tolerate this situation, or should it find ways to force integration"?

A Quebec scenario would be an anglophone enclave in Westmount, connected by internet (and work activity) with the broader anglosphere, and sending their kids to anglophone private schools. This anglophone enclave becomes virtually unassimilatable. Oh wait - this actually does happen in Quebec!

Yes, indeed it does happen and the anglos do appear "unassimilatable" (though they have become somewhat "integratable" I would argue) and any decline in the community comes mostly from outmigration as opposed to a large number of them entering the francophone fold lock, stock and barrel.

It also should be said that this situation was also aided by the willing support of the Canadian government, of Canadian big business and even (contrary to popular belief) of the Quebec provincial government. Something which immigrant groups (regardless of which one) would not likely have had on their side in their hypothetical quest to remain apart from wider society intergenerationally.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I've said several times on here that it's up to the people in Richmond and BC to decide on this, but I have a question: can English really be said to be threatened when no native English speakers are switching over to Mandarin/Cantonese as their main language, and no non-Chinese in Vancouver are learning these languages instead (and to the detriment) of English?

It could be a problem down the road.

Let's say there's 100,000 unilingual Mandarin speakers in Richmond now. It's not enough to threaten the anglophone majority in BC right now, and nobody is forcing the English speaking majority to learn Mandarin, so really who gives a shit. It's more of a nuisance than anything else right now.

Let's say that in 25 years time that Chinese immigration has continued relatively unimpeded, and with the Mandarin base in Richmond, there are now over a million unilingual Mandarin speakers in the province. The Mandarin community now feels large enough to flex some political muscle and begins to demand government services in their own language. Under political pressure, the government acquiesces and most new government employees in the lower mainland now are required to be bilingual English/Mandarin. Suddenly the English speaking majority discovers that many coveted government jobs are no longer available for their children and the "Mandarin issue" becomes a huge political problem.

A non-issue over time can become a huge politcal headache if left neglected and unattended. My scenario above is speculative fiction and will likely never happen, but I think it is a cautionary tale and behooves the government to think of the risks of allowing unassimililatable and cloistered minority language communities to continue to grow.

[esquire]

^ We're seeing that scenario play out to some extent in the US with the Hispanic population.

[someone123]

Another angle to this, I think, is that there is a lot of bias in terms of assuming that English will remain the dominant global culture (economically) and that Canada has so much free space and so many natural resources that we can accept a huge number of immigrants without really worrying about anything.

I'm not very confident that either of these factors are guaranteed to hold in the future in BC. China is already much larger and much more influential than Canada and many immigrants who come are wealthier than the local population. BC meanwhile is already experiencing environmental pressure and this is probably going to get worse all on its own due to climate change. The province is already squeezed for good land and the Lower Mainland has been on water restrictions for months. We're not really investing adequately in infrastructure either. If nothing changes, I think population growth will substantially reduce the quality of life in BC.

I'd say we could immigrate to some other country when things to south here but generally that's not allowed. People here definitely can't move to China and buy up real estate for example.