Canadian Airport Thread II

[q12]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I do wonder however, how will YHZ be a "hub" for PD as they have announced with no E2's being based there?

I would say Porter has to be careful with expanding too quickly. Westjet including Encore tried competing with Air Canada in the East and look where that got them (nearly full retreat).

This summer Porter is ramping up to 12 E195 daily departures from YHZ (3x daily to YYZ/YUL/YOW/YYT).

In comparison Porter will have 15 E195 daily departures from YOW (daily 4xYYZ/3xYHZ/2xYVR/YEG/YYC/1xYWG/MCO).

[Alexcaban]

Originally Posted by fanofYOW

I'm hoping it doesn't stop there though. Increased other carrier partnerships along with an alliance may be able to get BA to YOW and hopefully TS will consider European operations in the future as both PD and TS can feed each other in YOW. I personally am currently looking to completely phase out AC and WS for my travel needs. So far, it's working quite well with whatever PD is currently doing along with AF's surprisingly quick capacity increases that have been happening over the last 1/2 a year.

I don't see TS adding anything other then maybe LGW from YOW, anything else would just cannibalize their YUL operations.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Alexcaban

I don't see TS adding anything other then maybe LGW from YOW, anything else would just cannibalize their YUL operations.

I wouldn't say cannibalize but compliment. Now that AF is daily A350 this summer, there's a lot of people around Ottawa now who won't need to go to Montreal to go overseas, but there's still massive leakage to YUL but a huge chunk of that is not going to TS. This could be an opportunity for TS to both grow a new market and gain current leakage market share to the likes of DUB, LGW, GLA, FCO. Hell with LGW they could capture Ottawa-London traffic year-round before AC eventually comes back on YOW-LHR with the XLR.

[nname]

The following airlines just received license to operate scheduled service between Canada and Europe. The last one will be interesting...
- KlasJet Lithuania
- Legend Airline Romania
- Norse Atlantic UK

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by q12

I would say Porter has to be careful with expanding too quickly.

That's my worry too.

It's all and wonderful to have big dreams, but the aviation sector in this country has a weird way of doing it. It is very '3 Stooges trying to walk through the door together' vibes.

The Canadian aviation market needed shaking up, but the 3 Stooges way of approaching it seems the wrong one. Porter didn't need to bet the house, but it sure has. Doubled down, too. Odd timing, unless they feel the competition's not as robust as it seems to be and they can win in the long-term.

We shall see how long Porter's money lasts. Flair's surprised me so far, even if ominous headlines keep appearing.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by thewave46

That's my worry too.

It's all and wonderful to have big dreams, but the aviation sector in this country has a weird way of doing it. It is very '3 Stooges trying to walk through the door together' vibes.

The Canadian aviation market needed shaking up, but the 3 Stooges way of approaching it seems the wrong one. Porter didn't need to bet the house, but it sure has. Doubled down, too. Odd timing, unless they feel the competition's not as robust as it seems to be and they can win in the long-term.

We shall see how long Porter's money lasts. Flair's surprised me so far, even if ominous headlines keep appearing.

Again, I'll point out that Porter had the advantage of a warchest amassed by selling YTZ. A great Porter backgrounder here:

....Bromides notwithstanding, the TPA has acted in virtual lockstep with Porter. Its former CEO, current federal Minister of Transport Lisa Raitt, played bountiful midwife at Porter’s birth, granting Deluce the lion’s share (originally 95 per cent, now 85 per cent) of landing slots at Billy Bishop and ceding exclusive rights to operate a terminal.

“The way Deluce has played the Port Authority is masterful,” says Douglas Reid, a former TPA board member, now teaching at Queen’s School of Business. “He got them to buy a second ferry boat. He got them to build the tunnel. How he gets these doings done is nothing short of a miracle. The record of decisions favouring Deluce, without exposing him to costs, raises the question of who’s running the airport. It’s a textbook case of a tenant capturing a landlord.”..
https://torontolife.com/city/the-rel...robert-deluce/


Nobody's mentioned it, but they also just got a Canada Infrastructure Bank loan for building the St.Hubert airport on Montreal's south shore. Thereby neatly setting the Deluce's up to repeat the YTZ game plan by selling it off in a few years. Deluce is definitely shrewd.

New St-Hubert airport terminal gets $90-million loan from infrastructure bank
The South Shore airport's terminal, which is scheduled to open in 2025, will be able to handle up to four million passengers a year.

Author of the article:Frédéric Tomesco
Published Feb 06, 2024

A new airport terminal in St-Hubert is expected to open in 2025. Image courtesy of Porter Airlines

St-Hubert airport’s planned expansion is a step closer to reality after the Canada Infrastructure Bank approved a $90-million investment in a new passenger terminal.

The loan will allow Toronto-based Porter Aviation Holdings Inc. and Australia’s Macquarie Asset Management to jointly build the terminal, CIB said Tuesday. Exact terms aren’t being disclosed, though the financing is of a long-term nature, the federal Crown corporation said.

Airport authorities said last week that the airfield had been renamed Montreal Metropolitan Airport as part of its makeover. St-Hubert’s main runway can accommodate most commercial aircraft operating in Canada.

Scheduled to open in the summer of 2025, the new terminal — estimated to cost at least $200 million — will eventually be able to handle up to four million passengers a year. Porter plans to serve all major Canadian cities from the South Shore with a combination of Embraer E195-E2 jets and Dash 8-400 turboprops, while providing connecting flights for passengers served by Pascan regional airlines.....

https://montrealgazette.com/business...ers%20a%20year.

[big T]

The Montreal Metropolitan airport in St Hubert is not really a copy-paste of the YTZ business model though. Importantly, you need to cross a bridge to get to/from downtown, so most if not all the time saving will be due to the smaller/more efficient terminal compared to YUL, rather than physical distance. Per Google, as I'm writing this it takes 21 min to get to YUL from Place Ville-Marie, vs 25 min to get to St Hubert airport... without even mentioning that YUL will at long last get a real transit link to downtown, so until St Hubert gets the same YUL will absolutely win out accessibility wise thanks to predictable travel time.

I think the main positives will be to help offload YUL which is bursting at the seams (though the bulk of the issue is more of the intl side, so the effect will be muted), and (presumably) lower operating costs for Porter themselves. But for travellers anywhere outside the South Shore, this will not nearly be the game changer YTZ has been.

[thenoflyzone]

There's only so many aces you can hide up your sleeve.

Getting a loan and then having to pay it back, with interest, isn't the same as getting other people to do things for you, the way they did at YTZ (tunnel, second ferry, etc).

And as I've said before, while they're trying to emulate YTZ over at YHU, it won't be nearly as much a success story as they think it will. Montreal is not Toronto.

1. YHU isn't any closer to downtown Montreal compared to YUL. It might even take more time to get to downtown compared to YUL.
2. YHU will be limited to domestic flights only, and no one in Quebec wants to go to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Regina. YUL's lackluster domestic numbers are proof of this.

If PD thinks it will have a dozen Ejet flights a day from YHU to YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, etc, and make money off of it, even with feed from Pascan, they're dreaming.

All they will do is add costs running crew at a second Montreal airport, for very little gain, because they know they will need to keep their ops at YUL going, due to the TS tie-up. The true winners here are AC, which will take over the freed up gates at YUL with pleasure, and DASH-L, the airport operator at YHU, which is getting a shiny new terminal building for free, essentially.

Still a lot of unanswered questions with PD's expansion plans in general. Time will tell if it's successful or not. I have very serious doubts.

[YOWhopeful]

Originally Posted by big T

The Montreal Metropolitan airport in St Hubert is not really a copy-paste of the YTZ business model though. Importantly, you need to cross a bridge to get to/from downtown, so most if not all the time saving will be due to the smaller/more efficient terminal compared to YUL, rather than physical distance. Per Google, as I'm writing this it takes 21 min to get to YUL from Place Ville-Marie, vs 25 min to get to St Hubert airport... without even mentioning that YUL will at long last get a real transit link to downtown, so until St Hubert gets the same YUL will absolutely win out accessibility wise thanks to predictable travel time.

I think the main positives will be to help offload YUL which is bursting at the seams (though the bulk of the issue is more of the intl side, so the effect will be muted), and (presumably) lower operating costs for Porter themselves. But for travellers anywhere outside the South Shore, this will not nearly be the game changer YTZ has been.

Yes but Saint Hubert airport is just a 13 minute ride from Longueuil subway station. If Porter sets up a shuttle service from the airport to the subway station (as it did to Union Station from YTZ) then you’re pretty much set and no bridges to worry about.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by thenoflyzone

There's only so many aces you can hide up your sleeve.

Getting a loan and then having to pay it back, with interest, isn't the same as getting other people to do things for you, the way they did at YTZ (tunnel, second ferry, etc).

And as I've said before, while they're trying to emulate YTZ over at YHU, it won't be nearly as much a success story as they think it will. Montreal is not Toronto.

1. YHU isn't any closer to downtown Montreal compared to YUL. It might even take more time to get to downtown compared to YUL.
2. YHU will be limited to domestic flights only, and no one in Quebec wants to go to Edmonton or Winnipeg or Regina. YUL's lackluster domestic numbers are proof of this.

If PD thinks it will have a dozen Ejet flights a day from YHU to YYZ, YVR, YYC, YEG, YWG, etc, and make money off of it, even with feed from Pascan, they're dreaming.

All they will do is add costs running crew at a second Montreal airport, for very little gain, because they know they will need to keep their ops at YUL going, due to the TS tie-up. The true winners here are AC, which will take over the freed up gates at YUL with pleasure, and DASH-L, the airport operator at YHU, which is getting a shiny new terminal building for free, essentially.

Still a lot of unanswered questions with PD's expansion plans in general. Time will tell if it's successful or not. I have very serious doubts.

Yes, it is not quite the same but I can't help think that's why they've gone into St. Hubert

That said, I'd rather Porter survive than Flair.

[hollywoodcory]

WS adding the following YHM routes for S24:

YHM-YHZ - 1x daily
YHM-YYT - 5x weekly
YHM-MCO - 2x weekly

Also there’s a one time 787 flight added between YVR-YYC on April 28 likely for repositioning purposes.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

WS adding the following YHM routes for S24:

YHM-YHZ - 1x daily
YHM-YYT - 5x weekly
YHM-MCO - 2x weekly

Also there’s a one time 787 flight added between YVR-YYC on April 28 likely for repositioning purposes.

Any other additions elsewhere?

[Myst]

Time will tell on YHU.

I suspect they’re really aiming for the south shore market. I’m sure some will use it. Some will fly to YYZ to connect. Some will use it to visit family on the south shore or eastwards. The question is whether the domestic tourist market will even consider it. And whether it can work with the TS alliance and with the soup maybe being thinned out too much with “focus” at YHU+YUL+YOW. And how many passengers it takes to make viable.

Despite current restrictions, I expect they’ll find a way to add some US (read: Florida) eventually.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Any other additions elsewhere?

That’s it for now as far as I can tell.

[Base]

Still baffled YHU is shutout from transborder operations. Seems very anti competitive.

[Dominion301]

Originally Posted by Myst

Time will tell on YHU.

I suspect they’re really aiming for the south shore market. I’m sure some will use it. Some will fly to YYZ to connect. Some will use it to visit family on the south shore or eastwards. The question is whether the domestic tourist market will even consider it. And whether it can work with the TS alliance and with the soup maybe being thinned out too much with “focus” at YHU+YUL+YOW. And how many passengers it takes to make viable.

Despite current restrictions, I expect they’ll find a way to add some US (read: Florida) eventually.

Like I've previously mentioned how I think PD are developing YOW to be like AS' PDX akin to YYZ being SEA, I think PD will have distinct roles for YUL and YHU sort of akin to AA at JFK vs LGA.

YUL: a) Feed TS from the west, including YYZ, b) serve the majority of Montreal-YTZ flights, c) keep the longstanding YUL-YHZ high O&D route that affords some connections west and d) for anything transborder/international they do out of Montreal to sun destinations. I also think eventually there will be a couple of YUL-YOW DH4s per day to feed YOW's morning and evening banks and to feed TS at YUL.

YHU: anything domestic, including some overlap with YUL to YHZ, YYZ & YTZ. Flights timed for connections, including schedule coordination with Pascan. Possible destinations beyond the three already mentioned: YYT, YYG (seasonally), YQM, YFC, YXU, YOW (like YUL a couple of DH4s per day for feed on both ends), YWG, YEG, YYC, YVR on PD metal, plus maybe the likes of YXU, YSJ on Pascan.


Does anyone know whether PD will be able to sell transborder/international connections to/from YHU via YOW/YYZ or is that also banned too as part of the ADM's monopoly on those flights?

[hehehe]

Originally Posted by hollywoodcory

That’s it for now as far as I can tell.

The only thing I can see is YYC-YHM reduced to 8x weekly

[Dominion301]

The next two PD routes to be announced, include the much talked about "matter of when" YYT-YOW and a new PD destination - YDF to YHZ.

YHZ-YDF will be on the DH4.

Here are the schedules eff 04JUN24 for YDF-YHZ and 06JUN24 for YYT-YOW:

PD2195 YHZ-YDF 1245-1443
PD2196 YDF-YHZ 1525-1630

PD 296 YYT-YOW 0600-0745
PD 299 YOW-YYT 1410-1825

https://www.newswire.ca/news-release...860883531.html

[big T]

Originally Posted by YOWhopeful

Yes but Saint Hubert airport is just a 13 minute ride from Longueuil subway station. If Porter sets up a shuttle service from the airport to the subway station (as it did to Union Station from YTZ) then you’re pretty much set and no bridges to worry about.

YTZ has targeted business travellers from the get go. Its proximity to downtown has made same-day round trips from Montreal or Ottawa a much more attractive proposition than ever before. And even if you're staying overnight, getting in so close to downtown is always a plus.

On the Montreal end, YHU is very unlikely to ever be the preferred business O/D gateway. For business folks taking a cab (the majority), YUL is better. For those preferring transit, YUL will be a single seat ride to the heart of downtown, vs (presumably) a 3-seat ride from YHU (shuttle - yellow line - orange or green). It will only be a business gateway to the South Shore (say, Dix30), the same way you'd pick YYZ when going to Brampton or Mississauga.

What YHU would be well positioned for is low cost leisure, but without pre-clearance you'd have to go for really attractive fares to make up for the inconvenience. Domestic leisure out of Montreal is pretty weak, too. Maybe the idea is to use as a lower cost-of-operation feeder into YOW and YTZ. We'll see.

[hollywoodcory]

Originally Posted by hehehe

The only thing I can see is YYC-YHM reduced to 8x weekly

Not sure why it doesn't show on WS website yet but here's the schedules:

WS496 YHM 17:00 - 20:08 YHZ 7S8 D
WS371 YHZ 22:10 - 23:38 YHM 7S8 D

WS466 YHM 08:00 - 12:35 YYT 7S8 12356
WS467 YYT 13:35 - 15:42 YHM 7S8 12356

WS1914 YHM 07:05 - 10:05 MCO 7S8 47
WS1715 MCO 11:30 - 14:20 YHM 7S8 47