The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[Nouvellecosse]

^ Not if there was only ROW for part of the way. That can help to significantly reduce the cost of LRT or Skytrain while the rest of the line is in street (LRT) elevated, or tunnel, while this wouldn't be possible for commuter rail due to cost, platform length, etc.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

False. The AMT only owns one line (Deux-Montagnes) and has a ROW on other lines owner by the CN and CP. Which is why the Mascouche, Candiac and Mont-Saint-Hilaire lines have less than 10 daily departures per direction...

Fair enough. My point was that their is much less freight traffic in downtown Montreal and Toronto than Vancouver were the downtown portion is also a major rail yard for the port.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by bardak

Fair enough. My point was that their is much less freight traffic in downtown Montreal and Toronto than Vancouver were the downtown portion is also a major rail yard for the port.

There is a lot of freight traffic, not downtown but all over the island, as most freight goes to the port by train.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If there is ROw to fit a LRT or Skytrain, then you could put another heavy rail track.

If they are deteriorated, fixing the line up would then make them viable.

The fact remains that the only railway into downtown Vancouver is congested with freight traffic and there is no room to build more railway.

I am a big fan of Commuter rail/S-ban style systems however the geographic realities of Vancouver do not make it viable on a large scale. I believe that the GO RER (with proper fare integration) in the GTA is the most important transit project in the GTA if not Canada.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by bardak

The fact remains that the only railway into downtown Vancouver is congested with freight traffic and there is no room to build more railway.

I am a big fan of Commuter rail/S-ban style systems however the geographic realities of Vancouver do not make it viable on a large scale. I believe that the GO RER (with proper fare integration) in the GTA is the most important transit project in the GTA if not Canada.

Very true.

Toronto might not have to build more subway lines to the suburbs in the future

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

Very true.

Toronto might not have to build more subway lines to the suburbs in the future

Ideally Toronto wouldnt be building subways to the burbs. Subways should be for the areas of higher density and where there is nowhere to build but underground. In the suburbs they should be using a park and ride system that GO does so well.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Ideally Toronto wouldnt be building subways to the burbs. Subways should be for the areas of higher density and where there is nowhere to build but underground. In the suburbs they should be using a park and ride system that GO does so well.

That was the point of my sentence. I was referring to the Spadina extension going to Vaughan.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by SkahHigh

That was the point of my sentence. I was referring to the Spadina extension going to Vaughan.

Ah, gotcha. What a waste of dollars, line is WAY too long.

[SFUVancouver]

Images of the eagerly-awaited Mk3 SkyTrain cars by Bombardier are beginning to surface, including this official team photo from Bombardier of the front of the Mk3 vehicle. These will be in married 4-car 70 metre-long trainsets with accordion joints allowing passengers to move throughout the train. Passenger capacity should be in the 600-passenger range at max load. The new trains have larger windows, particularly at the front, better noise insulation, and probably improved interior finishings like seats and lighting. Looking forward to having these enter mainline service next year.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

New image from Bombardier's Twitter showing the front of the vehicle...

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The things is, they really haven't been able to reuse much infrastructure from the Transitway in Ottawa. The cost of implementing the Transitway was at a similar scale to LRT, but with buses. Converting now to LRT, they have to tear down stations and make expensive modifications to the ROW in some cases. Mostly the only benefit is that a surface ROW was preserved for so long.

Since so much of Ottawa's transit system depends on the Transitway, the conversion is also that much more painful. It is difficult here in KW, but it is relatively far less disruptive to shift the iXpress onto adjacent streets while King Street is closed than it is to shift bus routes off of the Transitway.

The conversion from a busway to LRT need not cost as much as it will cost in Ottawa. The most important aspect is to keep the alignment so it is compatible with LRT. In Ottawa the public was told not to worry at the beginning, the whole system will be built to rail standards which it was not due to the city cheaping out on subsequent expansions of the system. In Ottawa's case it probably would have been cheaper to do the whole BRT as rail. What you get in the beginning is what you will be forced to live with for many years to come until you have total congestion as experienced in downtown Ottawa.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by bardak

Fair enough. My point was that their is much less freight traffic in downtown Montreal and Toronto than Vancouver were the downtown portion is also a major rail yard for the port.

Not all of the CN route to Pacific Central station is subject to significant freight traffic. Pacific Central station is right beside the Skytrain at Main/Scienceworld which is practically downtown. Only a lack of foresight created a short walk from Pacific Central station to the Skytrain station.

[Horus]

Well, it was always kind of obvious, but at least someone has said it now. From the Toronto Star:

GO and Smarttrack are one and the same service, says Metrolinx
The CEO of the provincial agency has told the city that a separate SmartTrack brand would be "unaffordable and unworkable."

By: Tess Kalinowski Transportation reporter, Published on Sat Oct 17 2015

Metrolinx has finally answered the question that has confounded transit watchers since Mayor John Tory campaigned on his $8-billion signature transit plan. SmartTrack and GO's regional express rail plan are the same thing — at least for now — says the head of the provincial agency.

"An independent and parallel service would be unaffordable and unworkable," Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig wrote to city manager Peter Wallace in a letter dated Oct. 6.
Both SmartTrack and GO propose running electric trains at 15-minute frequencies on the GO tracks surrounding the city, connecting Markham and the west end through Union Station.

The mayor has been vague on how his service will be distinguishable from GO. Now, Metrolinx has a clear answer: At this point, there is no difference.

But it’s not clear what, if anything, that will mean for the future of SmartTrack.

In McCuaig’s letter, a response to a draft of the city's report on SmartTrack, he suggests the mayor's plan won't operate as a separate brand from GO.
"Metrolinx and the province believe that the (city report) should reflect the scenario where SmartTrack is an incremental increase in RER (regional express rail) service, rather than an independent and parallel service that co-exists with RER," he wrote.
...

Read more here
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/10/...and-the-same-service-says-metrolinx.html

[hipster duck]

A lot of Toronto transit enthusiasts have some kind of disdain for Smart Track. I'm not one of them. I had a feeling SmartTrack was basically a way to upgrade GO service to something more European and RER-like. In that sense, I wholly support this service. I also think that the eastern alignment into Markham is very practical. The western alignment along Eglinton is a bit of a headscratcher, though I think that will either get dropped, or be built as a continuation of the Crosstown LRT.

The only thing I'm worried about is that SmartTrack takes away attention and funding from the DRL. At least for the area south of Bloor-Danforth, Toronto needs a subway line with semi-close stops that runs under existing streets and neighbourhoods, not along a rail corridor.

[ssiguy]

GO RER and Smartrack were always basically the same idea but with one very glaring exception............RER would be run by GO and ST by the TTC. In other words, ST would offer the same service but at TTC prices and complete integration. GO will be noticeably more expensive which will mean it will still not be embraced by Torontonians themselves.

Many people who work 9 to 5 and where GO is very convenient still don't use the service because it is simply to damn expensive. The trains could run every 3 minutes all day and it wouldn't make any difference........they still couldn't afford to take it.

Most people who take transit are still overwhelmingly middle to lower incomes including students, low income wage earners, seniors, and others on fixed incomes. An extra $12 per day, at a minimum, adds up quickly and makes too big a dent in their wallet to justify using GO.

This is why GO ridership in Toronto {2.8 million} is lower than Mississauga with just 750k, it's not worth the extra cost. Despite having by far the best service in the GTAH, GO ridership in the city itself is embarrassingly low.

[caltrane74]

Taking a big hulking diesel locomotive from High Park to downtown for 4 or 5 bucks is probably not gonna be a practical alternative, unless the TTC is packed to overcapacity on the Bloor/University lines or ridiculous streetcar overcrowding begins.

Liberty Village, totally makes sense though, with the crowding on the King Car.

Also, at rush hour the locomotives are packed to the gills too!

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Most people who take transit are still overwhelmingly middle to lower incomes including students, low income wage earners, seniors, and others on fixed incomes. An extra $12 per day, at a minimum, adds up quickly and makes too big a dent in their wallet to justify using GO.

This is why GO ridership in Toronto {2.8 million} is lower than Mississauga with just 750k, it's not worth the extra cost. Despite having by far the best service in the GTAH, GO ridership in the city itself is embarrassingly low.

No, I think GO ridership is low in Toronto because GO is downtown-focused (specifically Union station-focused), and most people who work downtown in Toronto tend to live either downtown or on an existing subway line.

GO's fares are entirely reasonable within Toronto. $6.55 to take a GO train from Rouge Hill to Union in 37 minutes sure beats paying $3 to sit on the 54 Lawrence bus for nearly an hour before transferring onto the RT and then again on the subway for a 20 station ride.

[Beedok]

Plus GO being a little over priced for short trips helps it be convenient for people further a field and means less driving (the commuter in Burlington would be releasing a lot more CO2 driving to work in downtown Toronto than one from Etobicoke for instance). So for the sake of fighting climate change GO trains should focus on long trips.

[TownGuy]

I've noticed a huge jump in people taking GO at the Lakeshore East Toronto proper stations. This is all anecdotal but something I've definitely noticed. In years passed it seemed like no one got on or off the closer to Union starting at Rouge Hill. I usually take the train at off peak times so it might have something to do with the 30 min frequencies.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

GO RER and Smartrack were always basically the same idea but with one very glaring exception............RER would be run by GO and ST by the TTC. In other words, ST would offer the same service but at TTC prices and complete integration. GO will be noticeably more expensive which will mean it will still not be embraced by Torontonians themselves.

Many people who work 9 to 5 and where GO is very convenient still don't use the service because it is simply to damn expensive. The trains could run every 3 minutes all day and it wouldn't make any difference........they still couldn't afford to take it.

Most people who take transit are still overwhelmingly middle to lower incomes including students, low income wage earners, seniors, and others on fixed incomes. An extra $12 per day, at a minimum, adds up quickly and makes too big a dent in their wallet to justify using GO.

This is why GO ridership in Toronto {2.8 million} is lower than Mississauga with just 750k, it's not worth the extra cost. Despite having by far the best service in the GTAH, GO ridership in the city itself is embarrassingly low.

GO is not targeted toward the City of Toronto commuter. Its market is the beyond-Toronto commuter. And in that respect, it saves a lot of people a lot of time, and money too. It should not be that hard to understand. (for me, I'd pay more for parking than what I do in fares, never mind adding on the cost of fuel and vehicle wear and tear, nor the additional commute time for driving and frustration of sitting in traffic)

RER fare pricing has yet to be announced. SmartTrack pricing was a campaign promise based on what Tory is now quoted as saying is a "concept" for which he was not able to "sort out every detail". We'll have to see what happens, but RER will be very different from the existing GO train service in its level of service. And if it now means more local within-Toronto trains because it's one and the same as SmartTrack then we don't know yet how that service will be priced for the urban Toronto commuters.

[Nouvellecosse]

Besides, it really isn't reasonable to make commuting long distances to outer suburbs (and beyond) too cheap imo. It encourages lower density settlement patterns which puts greater strain on infrastructure. It should be cheaper than driving and parking, but certainly not as cheap as taking shorter trips within the city.