Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[J.OT13]

I preferred that one as well.

[jonny24]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

This still the design they are going for?


https://www.thespec.com/news/hamilto...ight-look.html

That's the render included in a package my company received in May 2022, so probably. We haven't gotten any new information since then as AFAIK are no longer pursuing it, so it could be changed since then.

[ScreamingViking]

The $500 million quoted in that link JHikka shared was news to me.
https://arenadigest.com/2022/06/17/f...ions-unveiled/

Locally $100M has been mentioned. We all knew it would be far more, but $500M is a game-changer. If true, this will definitely not remain the arena we know!

[esquire]

Couldn't you just demolish and rebuild for $500 million? Half a billion dollars is an incredible amount of money to sink into a tier-2 venue. Unless arena renos are just one part of a larger urban development scheme with that price tag attached.

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by esquire

Couldn't you just demolish and rebuild for $500 million? Half a billion dollars is an incredible amount of money to sink into a tier-2 venue. Unless arena renos are just one part of a larger urban development scheme with that price tag attached.

With inflation and everything, building a new modern arena (even if they cut some corners on amenities) would probably be 700-800m today. 500mill is significantly cheaper.

But spending 500mill to renovate an arena (especially for one with bones as good as FOC) whose tenant does NOT include an NHL or NBA team seems like a huge waste of money. They'll never get a good ROI in my opinion. If there's more to it than just the arena, then it's a whole different matter.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Berklon

With inflation and everything, building a new modern arena (even if they cut some corners on amenities) would probably be 700-800m today. 500mill is significantly cheaper.

But spending 500mill to renovate an arena (especially for one with bones as good as FOC) whose tenant does NOT include an NHL or NBA team seems like a huge waste of money. They'll never get a good ROI in my opinion. If there's more to it than just the arena, then it's a whole different matter.

The no NHL/NBA team thing is what I was getting at.

I can understand putting some money into renovating Copps Coliseum to freshen it up. But do you really need to go whole hog and essentially upgrade to full on modern NHL/NBA standards when there is no Hamilton team in either league and no realistic prospect of landing one anytime soon?

Even if Hamilton did land a team in one of those leagues, it would still require a new venue... Copps Coliseum, even renovated, wouldn't be the long term home I would imagine. So why spend half a billion dollars on renovating a building that will never be a permanent full time home to a team in one of those leagues?

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by esquire

Even if Hamilton did land a team in one of those leagues, it would still require a new venue... Copps Coliseum, even renovated, wouldn't be the long term home I would imagine. So why spend half a billion dollars on renovating a building that will never be a permanent full time home to a team in one of those leagues?

Why would it not though?

Someone with deep pockets that owns a future team might prefer to build their own facility out on the urban fringe next to a highway, but I think it more likely they'd work out a deal to play at the existing one.

I do wonder if that $500M was an overstatement. But the current arena is pretty bare bones and it will be costly to make it "modern"... I'd not think private sector operators would spend a bundle unless they have a solid business plan to recoup that investment.

There are other components to this too. Condos, revamping other entertainment facilities and the convention centre. All these pieces together may be supporting the case.

[O-tacular]

Ugh the merry go round continues. I expect the new arena to be completed around the same time as the Greenline lrt some time in the 2050's.

https://livewirecalgary.com/2023/02/...ntown-location

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Columbus is hard to argue with and was the model, along L.A. Live, for Rogers Place in Edmonton.

Calgary arena er, event centre talks resume today with some heavy political hitters behind it to help push it over the finish line.

The news release was that there was nothing new to be released.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Why would it not though?

Someone with deep pockets that owns a future team might prefer to build their own facility out on the urban fringe next to a highway, but I think it more likely they'd work out a deal to play at the existing one.

I do wonder if that $500M was an overstatement. But the current arena is pretty bare bones and it will be costly to make it "modern"... I'd not think private sector operators would spend a bundle unless they have a solid business plan to recoup that investment.

There are other components to this too. Condos, revamping other entertainment facilities and the convention centre. All these pieces together may be supporting the case.

The reason it wouldn't be is because we seldom ever see teams opt to play in renovated old buildings unless it happens to be a big US city where a new building might be prohibitively expensive.

It's unlikely to me that a prospective NHL team in Hamilton would opt to stay in a mid-80s vintage arena, even one that is renovated, versus building something that is fully modern. And downtown Hamilton is not New York or the Bay Area where land costs are stratospheric. If a NHL team landed in there, I'm sure it would be no more than 5 to 10 years before they started agitating for a new building. So what exactly is the $500 million buying?

[king10]

The $500m being discussed isnt just for the arena. It is for multiple venues. The article above is incorrect.

The project will see the firm modernize and conduct significant renovations to such buildings as FirstOntario Centre (formerly Copps Coliseum), FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre. It also calls for a significant investment in the Art Gallery of Hamilton, as well as new residential, affordable housing, office and retail space development. The total value of the project is approximately $500 million.

https://link2build.ca/news/articles/...elopment-plan/

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6059106

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5653371

The investment in the arena will be $100m minimum but perhaps more.

HUPEG is seeking to partner with OVG for the redevelopment of FirstOntario Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall, whereby OVG will increase the minimum investment of HUPEG’s original $50 Million to a minimum of $100 Million for the redevelopment of the FirstOntario Centre, and will bring its considerable financial and more importantly market clout to the renovation and operation of the renovated facilities.”

https://www.insauga.com/oak-view-gro...na-renovation/

[esquire]

^ Thanks for clarifying. $500 million for an arena without a major league tenant seems crazy to me.

Although mind you, it has been done. Quebec has done it (well, $370 million), and Saskatoon is about to. As a junior hockey enthusiast I am happy to see spectacular new junior hockey rinks go up... I'm just glad it's not my money.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Thanks for clarifying. $500 million for an arena without a major league tenant seems crazy to me.

As has been pointed out the goal is for the building to be a concert revenue generator. They probably make a good chunk of that money back in concerts and other events even without a major league tenant over a number of years. I'm not certain if they own the building/land, though. If so then the valuation makes sense.

Originally Posted by esquire

Although mind you, it has been done. Quebec has done it (well, $370 million), and Saskatoon is about to. As a junior hockey enthusiast I am happy to see spectacular new junior hockey rinks go up... I'm just glad it's not my money.

Couldn't help but notice today that NLL Rush crowds are half the size they were pre-Covid. Bringing this up for no reason whatsoever.

[blueandgoldguy]

They are only spending $50 - $100 million on renos to Hamilton's arena. A significant amount to be sure, but nowhere near enough to bring it up to NHL standards. Probably need to spend an additional $150 - $200 million to bring it up to NHL standards like an actual separate upper deck concourse for the upper deck seats and a circle of sky suites above the upper deck. I seem to recall those proposals from 10 - 15 years ago that discussed these additions as well as some actual renders.

I'm sure if they went ahead with these additional renovations to make it NHL-worthy (assuming there was some public money involved) there would be some kind of lease assuring the Hamilton-whatevers would remain in the arena for 20 - 30 years, as opposed to demanding a new arena after 10 or so years. Of course, if it was 100% private money allocated to refurbishing it to NHL-standards then all bets would be off as to when they would demand a new arena should an NHL team relocate to the Steeltown.

[blueandgoldguy]

Quebec City could have constructed the same size arena as Videotron but vastly reduced all the bells and whistles and still would have been capable of drawing all the same number of concerts. And they likely could have done so for around $200 million or so, maybe even a little less. Then, if the Nords were to come back, they could have spent another $200+ million to bring it up to NHL standards.

A good example of this is Oklahoma City. Prior to the relocation of the Supersonics, Oklahoma constructed a 19,000 seat arena for around $100 million. Only when the NBA came to town, did the city/owners invest an additional $150 - $200 million into the building to upgrade locker rooms/media rooms, expand and build new concourses and concessions, build suites and club areas, upgrade media areas, etc.

Quebec City should have followed this example instead of immediately spending nearly $400 million in public money on an arena. As it stands, the Videotron Centre draws decent concert numbers based on the 2019 Poll Star top arenas chart, but nothing mind-blowing.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

Quebec City could have constructed the same size arena as Videotron but vastly reduced all the bells and whistles and still would have been capable of drawing all the same number of concerts. And they likely could have done so for around $200 million or so, maybe even a little less. Then, if the Nords were to come back, they could have spent another $200+ million to bring it up to NHL standards.

A good example of this is Oklahoma City. Prior to the relocation of the Supersonics, Oklahoma constructed a 19,000 seat arena for around $100 million. Only when the NBA came to town, did the city/owners invest an additional $150 - $200 million into the building to upgrade locker rooms/media rooms, expand and build new concourses and concessions, build suites and club areas, upgrade media areas, etc.

Quebec City should have followed this example instead of immediately spending nearly $400 million in public money on an arena. As it stands, the Videotron Centre draws decent concert numbers based on the 2019 Poll Star top arenas chart, but nothing mind-blowing.

I get why QC did it the way they did. Talk was swirling about expansion and they needed everything going for them. Coming to the bid with a substandard arena would have been a major detriment, even with the plans in hand to upgrade it with the promise of a team. They were pretty confident they would get a team but they didn't count on expansion fees being so high. Similar to how Tim Hortons balked at the expansion fees, or Hamilton would already have their team.

[ericmacm]

Don’t forget that Quebec City also has been bidding multiple times for the Winter Olympics (despite the IOC telling them time and time again that Le Massif isn’t tall enough) and the construction of Centre Videotron was also part of that effort to increase the attractiveness of their bid.

Between NHL expansion buzzing, numerous teams in trouble potentially looking to relocate, and a potential Olympic bid on the horizon, it sort of made sense to build Centre Videotron. At the height of expansion, it seemed like a great investment since Quebec City and Las Vegas were the only two bids, right up until the NHL deferred Quebecor’s bid in favour of waiting for Seattle.

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Couldn't help but notice today that NLL Rush crowds are half the size they were pre-Covid. Bringing this up for no reason whatsoever.

This got me curious as to what the Canadian crowds are. Kind of surprised to see Vancouver at the top (according to Wikipedia). Guess the gamble to bring them under the Canucks umbrella paid off.

Re: the Rush specifically, from what I've heard the shine of the team has faded away since they got bought by the owners of Saskatoon's WHL team. Games used to be a drunken party, but apparently they've changed the focus and stuff like party bus deals with bars are no longer as common. No doubt the team's struggles play a factor, but... hard to imagine the key to maintaining interest in the team is running them like the worst junior team in the country.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by king10

The $500m being discussed isnt just for the arena. It is for multiple venues. The article above is incorrect.

The project will see the firm modernize and conduct significant renovations to such buildings as FirstOntario Centre (formerly Copps Coliseum), FirstOntario Concert Hall and the Hamilton Convention Centre. It also calls for a significant investment in the Art Gallery of Hamilton, as well as new residential, affordable housing, office and retail space development. The total value of the project is approximately $500 million.

https://link2build.ca/news/articles/...elopment-plan/

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6059106

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5653371

The investment in the arena will be $100m minimum but perhaps more.

HUPEG is seeking to partner with OVG for the redevelopment of FirstOntario Centre and FirstOntario Concert Hall, whereby OVG will increase the minimum investment of HUPEG’s original $50 Million to a minimum of $100 Million for the redevelopment of the FirstOntario Centre, and will bring its considerable financial and more importantly market clout to the renovation and operation of the renovated facilities.”

https://www.insauga.com/oak-view-gro...na-renovation/

Have we seen any renderings or information about those other projects?

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Thanks for clarifying. $500 million for an arena without a major league tenant seems crazy to me.

Although mind you, it has been done. Quebec has done it (well, $370 million), and Saskatoon is about to. As a junior hockey enthusiast I am happy to see spectacular new junior hockey rinks go up... I'm just glad it's not my money.

On the one hand, it's crazy to see such a massive arena for a minor league team. On the other hand, $370 million today is a bargain. We could probably not even get an arena half the size for that price nowadays.

[bridgeoftea]

I know the America vs Europe sports debate comes up every so often. But it is wild to me that the GTA doesn't have at least 3 teams in the NHL. Again different sport and different cultures but cities like Manchester, Liverpool, Lisbon, London, Edenborough can all support multiple football teams. Yet because of the closed shop nature of a franchised league, we are robbed of some really fun intercity rivalries.

I mean if you can take a train from Newark Penn to Penn Station New York - NJ Devils to NY Rangers in less than 20 minutes and have 2 teams. Why does the GTA not get that opportunity?

Forever wish to see an alternate universe of the NHL adopting the football promotion / relegation aspect with more community based teams that became big. Just thinking how fun would it be in a North American cup to watch the Montreal Canadians go to Charlottetown to play their 4th division professional team.