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  #7041  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2019, 10:57 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
It might be interesting to people who aren't aware of how unique Canada's history is, but on this forum it's been beaten to death. I'm not sure why you keep poking at this hobby horse of yours, to be honest. The sparse population of Loyalists retreating to our side in 1776 have been overshadowed culturally by the massive juggernaut to the south of us ever since. It's not rocket science.

The excitement is purely organic, and I don't think the explanation is all that complicated. No Canadian sports team has ever had a chance of success at this high a level before. People in Athens and Kathmandu will be watching. They don't watch Olympic hockey or curling. The epic nature of what is at stake here is palpable. Yes, this speaks to a yearning of Canadians for gravitas, something that we hosers have never had. The Americans drop nuclear bombs on Japan, invent rock-n-roll and walk on the moon, and they're our cousins. They're right next door and speak the same language. It would be bizarre if we weren't comparing ourselves to them. Who in Canada looks wistfully at that special potato dish the Macedonians have that Greeks like to make fun of and thinks, "gee, we should emulate that in our own way so that we can be more distinct from Americans"?

I'll tell you who: top-down-thinking bureaucrats and cultural mavens. Not people on the ground, who are refusing to scratch their chins and turn their noses up at NBA basketball as a foreign intrusion.

Which is not to say that Toronto wouldn't go absolutely bonkers if the Leafs won the Cup, because it absolutely would. But the perception that we've been waiting since 1993 for a championship is real. The Raptors averaged 19,824 spectators over 41 games this season. The Argos averaged 14,210 over 9 games in 2018. The Raptors playoff run is on a different level. Why fight it if you like basketball, or even you don't care about it all that much, but all your friends are getting together to watch the games and it's kinda fun?

Life's too short to care about liking what you're supposed to like when it comes to entertainment.
Well said!
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  #7042  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2019, 11:07 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
The owners of the team are the ones displaying the banners, not actual Leafs fans. And it's done today mostly to honor the history of the franchise and not really as a display that they were the best those years - even though that's what it also shows.

You don't see many Leaf fans bragging about winning a cup in 1967. Most know that it's not that huge of an achievement and most fans were either too young to remember it or weren't even born yet.

Not sure why people are comparing leagues in 2019 with a league from over 50 years ago. It was a much different time/era - things change. It's like stating your smartphone today is just as good as any other by comparing it to phones in the 60's. If the NHL, NBA, MLB or NFL reduced the amount of teams to 9 teams today - you'd see the same criticisms there.
Yes, what is wrong with honouring the history of the team? I think the fact that it is one of the original 6 and continues to survive today (despite their lack of success) is a significant accomplishment, especially since the difference between Canadian and US currency has long placed the advantage in the hands of the US owners in terms of cost of doing business, salary cap or not.

To me it's a testament to the fans that they have remained loyal to their team through the many frustrations that have occurred over the last half century.

It sometimes amazes me how much people place importance on minutia, such as how many teams were in the league when they last won their Stanley Cups, when most of us wouldn't even consider it a worthy discussion point.
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  #7043  
Old Posted Jun 2, 2019, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
It might be interesting to people who aren't aware of how unique Canada's history is, but on this forum it's been beaten to death. I'm not sure why you keep poking at this hobby horse of yours, to be honest. The sparse population of Loyalists retreating to our side in 1776 have been overshadowed culturally by the massive juggernaut to the south of us ever since. It's not rocket science.

The excitement is purely organic, and I don't think the explanation is all that complicated. No Canadian sports team has ever had a chance of success at this high a level before. People in Athens and Kathmandu will be watching. They don't watch Olympic hockey or curling. The epic nature of what is at stake here is palpable. Yes, this speaks to a yearning of Canadians for gravitas, something that we hosers have never had. The Americans drop nuclear bombs on Japan, invent rock-n-roll and walk on the moon, and they're our cousins. They're right next door and speak the same language. It would be bizarre if we weren't comparing ourselves to them. Who in Canada looks wistfully at that special potato dish the Macedonians have that Greeks like to make fun of and thinks, "gee, we should emulate that in our own way so that we can be more distinct from Americans"?

I'll tell you who: top-down-thinking bureaucrats and cultural mavens. Not people on the ground, who are refusing to scratch their chins and turn their noses up at NBA basketball as a foreign intrusion.

Which is not to say that Toronto wouldn't go absolutely bonkers if the Leafs won the Cup, because it absolutely would. But the perception that we've been waiting since 1993 for a championship is real. The Raptors averaged 19,824 spectators over 41 games this season. The Argos averaged 14,210 over 9 games in 2018. The Raptors playoff run is on a different level. Why fight it if you like basketball, or even you don't care about it all that much, but all your friends are getting together to watch the games and it's kinda fun?

Life's too short to care about liking what you're supposed to like when it comes to entertainment.
I only walked through a door that you yourself opened in a few of your posts on May 30.

I will respond in a more Acajack style when I can get on a computer.
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  #7044  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
No Canadian sports team has ever had a chance of success at this high a level before.
Is the NBA somehow a higher level than the NHL or MLB?
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  #7045  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:01 AM
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Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime View Post
Is the NBA somehow a higher level than the NHL or MLB?
Some people are getting carried away I think.

Though apparently the Raptors are the talk of Kathmandu now!
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  #7046  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:02 AM
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Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime View Post
Is the NBA somehow a higher level than the NHL or MLB?
Definitely over the NHL, and I would also say the NBA Finals are a much higher profile global event than a World Series as well.
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  #7047  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
Some people are getting carried away I think.
Ya think? One guy here is having some sort of sexual intercourse with himself every time he posts, time to get a room
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  #7048  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 1:56 AM
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The NBA final does provide some global visibility but it is unclear how much true cred Canada will get out of it.

Obviously some people will think "Canadians can play basketball too! Not just hockey !" Because they are iffy on details about the Raptors' roster and think it's like their leagues (esp. soccer) where nationals make up a good chunk of players on any club.
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  #7049  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 2:00 AM
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I once attended a Blue Jays road game in the US and overheard someone say "they're good hitters for a buncha Canadians".
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  #7050  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I once attended a Blue Jays road game in the US and overheard someone say "they're good hitters for a buncha Canadians".
Oh man, talk about that sweet high level of success we all crave.
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  #7051  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Djeffery View Post
Definitely over the NHL, and I would also say the NBA Finals are a much higher profile global event than a World Series as well.
I think the "higher level" angle is highly debatable. (I won't debate the higher global profile - that's definitely true. The NBA Finals have more visibility around the world than the Super Bowl.)

I'd say that the NBA, MLB and NHL are all arguably the top pro level in their respective sports.

The idea that the NBA is the élite of the three comes from the fact that basketball is played and followed by more countries than the other two.

But if we look at FIBA (basketball) rankings and Olympic champions, vs. IIHF (hockey) rankings and Olympic champions, hockey primacy is actually far more balanced and contested than basketball is. The USA is way more dominant in basketball than any single country in hockey is. Right now Team USA is ranked first (and always has been AFAIK) with over 1000 points. The second-ranked national basketball team is Spain with just over 700 points.

The IIHF hockey rankings are much closer with Canada first but 5-6 other teams close behind. Plus Russia is the reigning Olympic champion and Finland is the just-crowned world champion.

No matter how popular basketball is worldwide I am not sure that a pro team with no Canadians on the roster with an American GM and an American coach really outranks or even challenges any of our recent gold-medal winning Olympic hockey squads as "Canada's greatest team" under any metric.
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  #7052  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 2:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
It might be interesting to people who aren't aware of how unique Canada's history is, but on this forum it's been beaten to death. I'm not sure why you keep poking at this hobby horse of yours, to be honest. The sparse population of Loyalists retreating to our side in 1776 have been overshadowed culturally by the massive juggernaut to the south of us ever since. It's not rocket science.

The excitement is purely organic, and I don't think the explanation is all that complicated. No Canadian sports team has ever had a chance of success at this high a level before. People in Athens and Kathmandu will be watching. They don't watch Olympic hockey or curling. The epic nature of what is at stake here is palpable. Yes, this speaks to a yearning of Canadians for gravitas, something that we hosers have never had. .
With all due respect, this is just a more intellectual variant to the classic Canadian rebuttal about acculturation to the U.S.: everybody else in the world is doin' it too!

So sure, people in the Athens and Kathmandu are more likely to be aware of the Raptors right now than they are of the Saskatchewan Roughriders or even the Montreal Canadiens. That's a fact.

But the degree to which this stuff has immense global traction is always extremely overstated, as it is in this post of yours.

Taking an example from the political sphere, I have a good friend who is Italian. Never lived outside Italy. Never been to North America. He is very up on politics and current affairs. Living in a big city in Italy, as a white collar professional, in the age of globalization and the Internet, he learned of the election of Barack Obama *from me* on the day following the election in the late afternoon, when I asked him "hey whaddaya think of that?", and he replied "what do I think of what?"

So this notion that everyone on the planet always has their eyes glued on American stuff in all areas (culture, politics, sports, society, etc.) is largely a fallacy that exists to explains a certain way of being Canadian-and-their-neighbours. (Yes, American stuff resonates globally more than any other - just not as much as is often claimed.)

Another example. I've got hundreds friends on social media from a United Nations of countries. Since birds of a feather flock together most are interested in politics and current affairs. Down to a man/woman, the only ones other than Americans who post shit about Trump are Canadians. And most of the Canadians post more stuff about Trump (and U.S. issues) than they do about Canadian issues. My friends in the rest of the world generally post stuff about their own countries' issues, or global stuff like the plastic garbage island in the Pacific or the migrant crisis in the Mediterranean.

My last word (for now) is that it's OK for Canadians to be like this. If that's the nature of the country then so be it. But the denial sometimes is a bit much. It's as if Italians argued that their country was super-organized and orderly, or claimed that everyone in the world (including the Germans and Japanese) was every bit as disorganized and disorderly as the Italians.
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  #7053  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:10 PM
OldDartmouthMark OldDartmouthMark is offline
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Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
With all due respect, this is just a more intellectual variant to the classic Canadian rebuttal about acculturation to the U.S.: everybody else in the world is doin' it too!
Actually, IMHO you failed to address the most important point that he made:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
Life's too short to care about liking what you're supposed to like when it comes to entertainment.
Which is why I think it's a good thing overall. Significant numbers of people all across the country are excited about a team that is situated in a Canadian city having a chance at winning the NBA playoffs. Everybody who chooses to participate seems to be having a great time and enjoying the spectacle, so I fail to see anything negative about it.

Who cares if the team is not made up of Canadians? It's not the Olympics... the team is not officially representing Canada - everybody knows that. It's just fun... entertainment. It doesn't have to mean anything more or less than that. You can choose to enjoy and participate if you wish, or ignore it and pay attention to other things if that's your preference - it's all good either way.

Just my 2¢...
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  #7054  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:22 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Which is why I think it's a good thing overall. Significant numbers of people all across the country are excited about a team that is situated in a Canadian city having a chance at winning the NBA playoffs. Everybody who chooses to participate seems to be having a great time and enjoying the spectacle, so I fail to see anything negative about it.
I have to admit even I am getting caught up in it. Seeing the excitement of the people in Toronto, and the colour and drama that has gone along with this series, makes me excited for them. I've watched good chunks of the two finals games thus far which is more of the NBA finals than I've watched since probably the early 90s.

By comparison, the Stanley Cup Finals seem colossally dull. Even though the hockey is good, there is little to get excited about unless you like seeing replays of devastating cross checks and slashes all the time. The NHL seems like it is intent on dumping as much cold water on its product as possible, as compared to the NBA which excels at the sizzle.
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  #7055  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:25 PM
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Actually, IMHO you failed to address the most important point that he made:
I don't know if Acajack has ever enjoyed anything at face value in his life. More power to him... I respect the views on a number of things but I don't know if I've ever met someone who could probably turn something as benign as Groundhog Day into a discussion of socio-cultural strife in the Canadian political landscape.
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  #7056  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:27 PM
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I don't know if Acajack has ever enjoyed anything at face value in his life. More power to him... I respect the views on a number of things but I don't know if I've ever met someone who could probably turn something as benign as Groundhog Day into a discussion of socio-cultural strife in the Canadian political landscape.
Would Kawhi's buzzer beater have gone in if the game was played in Trois-Rivieres? Here's my column outlining why it wouldn't have, based on the socio-political history of blacks in Quebec in the 1640s:



Seriously, it's a basketball game. Fullstop.
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  #7057  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:49 PM
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Of course not, if the French rules had been given equal representation than the rims would have been 2 cm thinner and not had the necessary spring for the quadruple-bounce buzzer beater.
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  #7058  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by JHikka View Post
Seriously, it's a basketball game. Fullstop.
Exactly, nobody at my work gives a shit about it and the only sports talk that went on is that it would be nice if the Blues could win.
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  #7059  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 6:11 PM
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Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark View Post
Actually, IMHO you failed to address the most important point that he made:



Which is why I think it's a good thing overall. Significant numbers of people all across the country are excited about a team that is situated in a Canadian city having a chance at winning the NBA playoffs. Everybody who chooses to participate seems to be having a great time and enjoying the spectacle, so I fail to see anything negative about it.

Who cares if the team is not made up of Canadians? It's not the Olympics... the team is not officially representing Canada - everybody knows that. It's just fun... entertainment. It doesn't have to mean anything more or less than that. You can choose to enjoy and participate if you wish, or ignore it and pay attention to other things if that's your preference - it's all good either way.

Just my 2¢...
Oh, I agree that this kind of stuff can be really fun if you get into it.

But if people read something into it or try to make into something that's not necessarily a given, then I (and certain others) may pose questions and debate all of that. It's just a normal part of human discourse.
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  #7060  
Old Posted Jun 3, 2019, 6:13 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbanite View Post
I don't know if Acajack has ever enjoyed anything at face value in his life. More power to him... I respect the views on a number of things but I don't know if I've ever met someone who could probably turn something as benign as Groundhog Day into a discussion of socio-cultural strife in the Canadian political landscape.
On a discussion forum that's meant to be an exchange of ideas (good, bad and ugly) as opposed to a "Yay Raptors!*" circle-jerk, I'll actually take this as a compliment.

*There are plenty of other forums for this if that's your thing.
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Last edited by Acajack; Jun 3, 2019 at 6:30 PM.
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