Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Acajack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULP0cbGXU8k

I loved watching that show!

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I love how the Quebecois constantly lecture Canadians how terrible things are for Francophones outside of la Belle Province, but should Canadians say anything about how things are maybe not that rosy for Anglophones in Quebec, the comments are routinely dismissed. Those legacy institutions largely date back to the times when such institutions were funded from within.

Personally, I find it tragic that the ROC is becoming less francophone and that Quebec's long-standing English minority is dwindling. I am sure that is music to some people's ears, but not mine. As a Canadian who is very proud to be from Quebec, I think we are losing one of the great things about this country. I will never be a cheerleader for these trends.

I agree with the sentiment but I don't think either is true. Francophones are in better shape than previously in many parts of Canada. Yes some are being assimilated but where there is a critical mass there are more resources than ever in many cases. The government might be chasing Anglophones away but the community as a whole is growing despite the institutional barriers. Legault wanted to differentiate newcomers and the historic community but this didn't fly, yet. Doing so would certainly slow down the incoming anglophones. Especially if school choice was removed (though I think that is exempt from notwithstanding clause?)

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

I love how the Quebecois constantly lecture Canadians how terrible things are for Francophones outside of la Belle Province, but should Canadians say anything about how things are maybe not that rosy for Anglophones in Quebec, the comments are routinely dismissed. Those legacy institutions largely date back to the times when such institutions were funded from within.

Personally, I find it tragic that the ROC is becoming less francophone and that Quebec's long-standing English minority is dwindling. I am sure that is music to some people's ears, but not mine. As a Canadian who is very proud to be from Quebec, I think we are losing one of the great things about this country. I will never be a cheerleader for these trends.

For a long time the dominant discourse in Canada was about French declining in the ROC and English declining in Quebec. Trends which if they continued threatened a certain vision of the country, if not Canada itself. (Since official language minority communities are effectively the "bridges" between the two solitudes.)

But while the decline of francophones outside Quebec continues, in Quebec itself there has been a different trend in the past (1-2) census periods. The anglophone community in Quebec has begun growing again, both in sheer numbers and relative terms (%). Quebec has even been building some new anglophone schools here and there, in keeping with its constitutional obligations.

[harls]

Had to contact my high school last week to get a record of my English schooling if my kid wanted to go to an English CÉGEP.

(He is going to a French one, but it's still good to have.)

I think it was the first time my high school ever had to do this in its entire history.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by harls

Had to contact my high school last week to get a record of my English schooling if my kid wanted to go to an English CÉGEP.

(He is going to a French one, but it's still good to have.)

I think it was the first time my high school ever had to do this in its entire history.

Strange, as the Bill 101 requirement for K-12 has not been extended to CEGEPs. Even though there has been considerable pressure on the government to do just that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I agree with the sentiment but I don't think either is true. Francophones are in better shape than previously in many parts of Canada. Yes some are being assimilated but where there is a critical mass there are more resources than ever in many cases. The government might be chasing Anglophones away but the community as a whole is growing despite the institutional barriers. Legault wanted to differentiate newcomers and the historic community but this didn't fly, yet. Doing so would certainly slow down the incoming anglophones. Especially if school choice was removed (though I think that is exempt from notwithstanding clause?)

The school admission rules for K-12 are not changing and are covered by the Constitution. The NWC cannot be used to circumvent them.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Of course Quebec's faded Bievenue Welcome Wilkomen Bienvenido signs look ridiculous as does it's unilingual French Highway direction signs when almost everywhere else save North Korea probably has English on such signs but that is the Quebec complex and something we need to accept.

Seriously?

I can assure there is no English on road signs in Europe. Same in Francophone Africa (except for Cameroon).

I don't remember seeing English on road signs in Mexico when I lived there either.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

As for communication, I use to work in the Direction régionale de santé publique de Montréal (public health) and we received lab results from English hospitals generally in English.

Did the Direction complain?

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by lio45

A good summary is that the situation are mirrors of each other:

In Quebec, you have French-only signs but when you get in you'll get served in English.

In Ontario, the signs are bilingual but in practice you'll be served in English only.

You'd have to be a real fool to fall for the illusion that the latter is a functionally more bilingual society

In general the more a polity displays bilingual signs, the less it is likely the minor language is being spoken. It's an almost universal rule in Europe. Some departments in Breton-speaking Brittany insist on bilingual Breton signs everywhere, but in practice you could not be served in Breton almost anywhere. In Alsace there are no bilingual signs, but you could still find many people who could serve you in Alsatian dialect.

In the Valencian Community, bilingual signage (Spanish-Valencian) is ubiquitous, but it is inversely proportional to actual use of the language. In Alicante you'll see bilingual signs everywhere, but no one really could serve you in Valencian there (and they would show some discontent if you tried to address them in Valencian). I've always found those bilingual signs so artificial...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Did the Direction complain?

I know you would.

You’d likely inform the local gendarmerie and demand immediate prosecution and summary imprisonment

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I don't see why Québec should be subsidizing students that have no intentions to stay in Québec after their diplomas. If they want to study in a world class University like McGill, they can pay the full charge, which isn't that much compared to other universities in North America (add that to the fact that Montréal is a less expansive city that most others on the continent).

We don't need to be the Dollarama of higher education to the benefit of other provinces.

Scotland does exactly the same as Québec. Small fees for Scottish students, high fees for English or other non-Scottish students who wish to study in Scottish universities.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

In general the more a polity displays bilingual signs, the less it is likely the minor language is being spoken. It's an almost universal rule in Europe. Some departments in Breton-speaking Brittany insist on bilingual Breton signs everywhere, but in practice you could not be served in Breton almost anywhere. In Alsace there are no bilingual signs, but you could still find many people who could serve you in Alsatian dialect.

In the Valencian Community, bilingual signage (Spanish-Valencian) is ubiquitous, but it is inversely proportional to actual use of the language. In Alicante you'll see bilingual signs everywhere, but no one really could serve you in Valencian there (and they would show some discontent if you tried to address them in Valencian). I've always found those bilingual signs so artificial...

One can say that authorities generally only put up bilingual signs in the minority language only when all risk of that language taking over as the main one has been extinguished.

"Now that we've effectively killed language X, we can put up signs in that language without concern."

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

I know you would.

You’d likely inform the local gendarmerie and demand immediate prosecution and summary imprisonment

I'd probably send an anonymous letter of denunciation so they send you to some sort of gulag in Nunavut.

[harls]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Strange, as the Bill 101 requirement for K-12 has not been extended to CEGEPs. Even though there has been considerable pressure on the government to do just that.

It was more for Heritage College (in Gatineau). Yes, they allow French kids, but they prioritize English ones. This would sort of increase his chances of getting in there (not that he'd really need it ). He also wouldn't have to do the French test at the end of CEGEP to get his diploma (also.. not that it would be an issue, but kind of useless).

Anyway, he's going to CEGEP de l'Outaouais, so New Brisavoine will be happy.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I'm not sure. On one hand English is becoming more pervasive but the previous claim that is because they are an Island in North America becomes less relevant. Quebec is actually a pretty large nation as they go. There is really no scenario where French disappears is there? If not what is the point of all of this. Do more Anglophones living in Montreal present a threat to anyone? As I say this eventually you won't be able to work in the service industry without English but Quebecers need English more and more anyway to function in the world economy so that is inevitable.

The statistics were presented a few months ago (from Statcan censuses). French language use is declining both in Montréal and Québec overall. The erosion is noticeable. Of course you can say it's still "high", and going from 79% to 77% is nothing to worry about, but it's like the frog being in a pot of water whose temperature is slowly rising.

Whether the French language survives in North America in the long term is still an open question. Sure it won't disappear in Québec within a generation or two, but nobody can firmly say that French will still be spoken in Québec in 200 years. A slow Louisianization is still a possible outcome.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I can assure there is no English on road signs in Europe. Same in Francophone Africa (except for Cameroon).

Stop. Just, stop.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

What would be the advantage of folding our system into the broader Canadian one, when in Quebec you can study medicine for 4000 dollar a year or learn a trade over three years for around 1000 dollars all in.

Studying medicine for 4000 dollars a year would be considered extortionate in France. Here one year of medical studies costs the grand total of... 380 Canadian dollars (including health insurance).

To that you'd have to add money for the "matériel pédagogique", which has risen a lot in recent years (books, computer, etc), but it's still only around 700 Canadian dollars for a year of medical studies.

Unsurprisingly, Socialism being Socialism, French student unions think studies cost too much in France, and the life of French students is hell (they don't have enough money to eat, etc).

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Did the Direction complain?

Not that I know of.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Ireland is actually an interesting example because all of their government departments and agencies have fancy-schmansy names in Irish Gaelic that appears first on signs and on letterhead. (Sometimes only the Irish Gaelic name appears, in fact.)

But everything beyond the name is in English only.

Oddly, Wales, despite being much closer to the heart of England, and being dominated by England for a longer time than either Ireland or Scotland, has remained far more Celtic speaking than Ireland. In Wales, although the Welsh language is unfortunately still declining in daily use, it is nonetheless much more spoken than in either Ireland or Scotland, and is really used by the Welsh administration (especially since they have had devolved government in the 2000s). Their official websites are really bilingual (it's not just the official names), and you can find quite a few civil servants and politicians able to speak Welsh (although Cardiff is mostly unilingual English).

Even their prime minister expresses himself in Welsh, and he speaks frankly fluent Welsh (not like an Anglo-Canadian politician struggling to speak French). I was really impressed.

Here is one of his videos in Welsh (by the way, if you think his Welsh has an "English accent", in fact it's not an English accent, it's the other way around, it's those sounds that seem familiar in British English that in fact originate from Welsh... Welsh/Britonnic phonology had a great influence over the Germanic language brought to the British Isles by the Anglo-Saxons):

• Video Link

Here opening the Welsh Labour conference with absolutely flawless Welsh. It's impressive he does that considering 80% of people currently living in Wales cannot understand Welsh. That's a government that is really serious about its bilingualism.

• Video Link

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

I mean Catalan is a dialect where they are a minority and even there it's still widespread despite active central government discouragement.

Feel thankful for there not being any Catalan forumers around, or this thread would degenerate into absolute pandemonium.

Catalan is NOT a dialect, just as Dutch is not a dialect. And a dialect of what anyway? Catalan is closer to French than to Spanish. Spanish is a close kin of Portuguese. Catalan is a close kin of Occitan and French. The big linguistic border is between Catalan and Spanish. As a French speaker, I can understand many Catalan words better than a Spanish speaker (although there is now a new pan-Spain vocabulary that is shared by both Catalan and Spanish due to them living in the same country and sharing the same institutions, but the core, ancestral vocabulary is far closer to French).

For example: abans(Cat)/avant(Fr) vs antes(Sp)
perdut(Cat)/perdu(Fr) vs perdido(Sp)
a reveure(Cat)/au revoir(Fr) vs adios(Sp)
molt(Cat)/moult(Fr; now superseded by "beaucoup") vs mucho(Sp)
demà(Cat)/demain(Fr) vs mañana(Sp)
compte(Cat)/compte(Fr) vs cuenta(Sp)
jorn(Cat)/jour(Fr) vs día(Sp)
etc. etc.