Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

We don't need to be the Dollarama of higher education to the benefit of other provinces.

Perhaps not, but I greatly dislike how Balkanized higher education is starting to become in Canada. I may be more sensitive to this because I am in medicine, but, virtually all provinces limit med school enrollment to residents of their own province. This can be a problem with smaller provinces with questionable standards of medical education. For example UPEI is setting up their own medical school, in a city of 80,000, where the hospital is absent many specialties and complex patients are routinely referred to Moncton or Halifax for treatment. Students at this school are going to definitely have an inferior experience compared to their mainland counterparts. I strongly feel that there should not be significant geographic constraints as to where you do your education. This is an act of nation building and broadens student horizons. It would improve understanding across provincial borders for our future leaders. People should be able to go wherever they want for education without significant constraints.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

There are 11 hospitals in NB which are under the jurisdiction of the Reseau de Sante Vitalite (Franco health board).

New Brunswick is 30% French with significant areas of the province 100% French speaking (or very close). It is the only province in Canda with this language dynamic and the reason why it's the only bilingual province.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by vanatox

New Brunswick is 30% French with significant areas of the province 100% French speaking (or very close). It is the only province in Canda with this language dynamic and the reason why it's the only bilingual province.

That's why Ontario is a much better comparable to Quebec than New Brunswick is.

And Ontario does not do well compared to Quebec when it comes to this - occasional EXIT-SORTIE highway signs notwithstanding.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Can't refute the argument, so resort to the personal attacks. So immature.

The idea that the language on the signs is what matters, rather than the actual language of the service and of society, is so ridiculous that it was already pre-refuted.

If you think Air Canada CEO Michael Rousseau has a harder time managing to live in Montreal than an unilingual Francophone would have living in St. John's, strictly on the basis that the former's driver's license is in French only while the latter's has some token Second Official Language on it, I don't know what to say except that "fool" was an understatement, and that I don't think I'll waste more time with you on this

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. An English Quebecker will have access to a lot more stuff than a Francophone Acadian. They can enter their local big city and order Tim's or McD's in their language, etc. They have a lot less of a glass ceiling too: they can become CEO of Air Canada. They can become PM. They can become GG. Etc.

Seems to me we have had multiple PMs and GGs from Quebec, the majority of whom were francophone first.

In NB, the nuisance of having to order your double-double in English is no doubt annoying, but the flip side is that if you are a bilingual francophone Acadian, you are automatically on the fast track for advancement in governments and large corporations. I think it evens out.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by vanatox

But it's all fake.

Exactly my point.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Then other provinces should do the same. There's no reason why a Quebec student from Rimouski should pay the same tuition as a NB student from Edmundston to attend U de Moncton.

The reason that other provinces don't do it is because it's already way more expensive to study outside Quebec than within Quebec for Quebec students. Unlike the McGill situation, there are very few Quebec students "leeching" off ROC money at ROC universities because there is nothing to leech.

Let's say it costs 3500 bucks a year to study in Quebec and 15000 a year to study at the same program at the University of Ottawa. Ontario is gonna ding Quebec students a few thousand bucks more just because they are from Quebec?

Fine then. Quebec students will just stay in Quebec even more and the University of Ottawa will get fewer students. (The number of Quebec students at the University of Ottawa has already plummeted due to the discrepancy in tuition fees as it is.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Seems to me we have had multiple PMs and GGs from Quebec, the majority of whom were francophone first.

Really?!? I don't recall one single PM nor GG who couldn't speak at least some English.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

You seem to have "forgotten" that all Quebec official documents such as driver's licenses, health cards, etc. are French only. Plus, there are no official English names for government departments, etc. Unlike in NB, ON and MB, where all government departments/ministries, commissions, crowns have an official English and French name.

Heck, even Newfoundland with a French mother tongue population of ~0.5% has bilingual driver's licenses.

https://youtu.be/35QaJUYXcC8?t=10

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

Really?!? I don't recall one single PM nor GG who couldn't speak at least some English.

Jean Chretien?

Of course, he was neither fluent in French or English. (just kidding).......

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

You seem to have "forgotten" that all Quebec official documents such as driver's licenses, health cards, etc. are French only. Plus, there are no official English names for government departments, etc. Unlike in NB, ON and MB, where all government departments/ministries, commissions, crowns have an official English and French name.

Heck, even Newfoundland with a French mother tongue population of ~0.5% has bilingual driver's licenses.

You're hung up on bilingual printing because that's all francophones generally get in most of the ROC.

It's a cheap one-shot thing - you're printing the signs and cards anyway. Pay a few hundred bucks to a translator and bob's your uncle.

This is nothing compared to the cost, commitment and energy required to actually have staff who can speak the other language on hand at all times, and the internal institutional capacity to do stuff like ToxiK mentioned such as being able to process hospital and reports in a second language without bogging down or paralysing the system.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Seems to me we have had multiple PMs and GGs from Quebec, the majority of whom were francophone first.

In NB, the nuisance of having to order your double-double in English is no doubt annoying, but the flip side is that if you are a bilingual francophone Acadian, you are automatically on the fast track for advancement in governments and large corporations. I think it evens out.

In Québec, you don't have the nuisance of having to order your double-double in French only, but still if you are a bilingual Anglophone , you are automatically on the fast track for advancement in governments and large corporations.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by lio45

Really?!? I don't recall one single PM nor GG who couldn't speak at least some English.

Same thing for presidents of major airlines in Montréal...

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Then other provinces should do the same. There's no reason why a Quebec student from Rimouski should pay the same tuition as a NB student from Edmundston to attend U de Moncton.

I agree !

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Jean Chretien?

Of course, he was neither fluent in French or English. (just kidding).......

I'd probably vote for him even if he were an unilingual speaker of Klingon, if the alternatives are JT and PP

Crazy how the standards really fell during the last decade or two...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

In Québec, you don't have the nuisance of having to order your double-double in French only, but still if you are a bilingual Anglophone , you are automatically on the fast track for advancement in governments and large corporations.

I imagine that's true, yes.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'd probably vote for him even if he were an unilingual speaker of Klingon, if the alternatives are JT and PP

Crazy how the standards really fell during the last decade or two...

Sadly true.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Perhaps not, but I greatly dislike how Balkanized higher education is starting to become in Canada. I may be more sensitive to this because I am in medicine, but, virtually all provinces limit med school enrollment to residents of their own province. This can be a problem with smaller provinces with questionable standards of medical education. For example UPEI is setting up their own medical school, in a city of 80,000, where the hospital is absent many specialties and complex patients are routinely referred to Moncton or Halifax for treatment. Students at this school are going to definitely have an inferior experience compared to their mainland counterparts. I strongly feel that there should not be significant geographic constraints as to where you do your education. This is an act of nation building and broadens student horizons. It would improve understanding across provincial borders for our future leaders. People should be able to go wherever they want for education without significant constraints.

I don't think a slightly higher fee is a significant constraint for education (especially in a city with a pretty low cost of living).

Would students at McGill or Concordia really be broadening their horizons if they don't speak French and limit themselves in an English bubble in Montréal downtown and demanding that business there have bilingual (or unilingual English speaking) employees to serve them?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

English Quebeckers have more access to services in English than Acadians. This is because well they speak English. You can get some kind of service in English in any part of Quebec. A St. John business is very likely not to have someone who can serve you in French.

Of course Quebec's faded Bievenue Welcome Wilkomen Bienvenido signs look ridiculous as does it's unilingual French Highway direction signs when almost everywhere else save North Korea probably has English on such signs but that is the Quebec complex and something we need to accept.

Guess you haven't travelled that much. Places that use the Roman alphabet around the world have road signs in the local or national language only. This even applies to very touristy places.

Where you see road signs with English added is generally in places where the local language uses something other than the Roman alphabet. Though in some places (like Morocco) it might be French or some other European language that is added in Roman characters.

Most places in the world use pictograms for the vast majority of signs, and Quebec does this too. Not sure how it's more critically informational for someone it would be to have a sign that says "Rue St-Pierre St." or OUEST-WEST.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec does not have to follow the Ontario model with designated service regions and shiny new EAST-EST on highway signs in order for the minority to have a greater ability to be served and indeed live in its own language.

Quebec has multiple anglophone hospitals and also bilingual hospitals. Ontario has one: Montfort. Quebec has several anglophone universities and Ontario has none (effectively).

Ontario even has issues with providing bilingual 911 operators in 70% francophone regions like Prescott-Russell, and has had francophone women see sexual assault charges dropped against their rapist because for some reason the court couldn't find an interpreter who spoke French. In Northern Ontario!

Francophone parents in Ontario have been told by social workers that they can't speak to their kids in French because the unilingual anglophone social worker can't understand what is being said, and they supposedly don't have anyone who can.

What about Lachute hospital which was forced to remove all English from its signage. I guess having the word "Parking" on a sign is such as threat to French.