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  #681  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 9:08 PM
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Anyone have an idea about how we could improve Bluesfest Park? At the moment, it's an empty field used one month per year for the festival and, well now, Canada Day. How can we bonify its offerings while preserving its use for the July festivals?

I was also thinking about Vimy Place. If there was ever an example of a piece of underutilized car infrastructure, it's that. I would love to see the stretch between Wellington Street and the museum's parking garage eliminated in order to open-up the park to the river. Wellington could also use a serious road diet, especially if the section in front of Parliament is ultimately closed. It should become a regular urban street like Queen, Elgin (south of Lisgar) or Rideau, not a traffic sewer.
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  #682  
Old Posted Feb 21, 2023, 9:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoonsy View Post
not sure why randall denley opinion pieces are any more significant than any tom dick or harry writing a facebook comment
They may not be, but they often generate a healthy discussion here. He had a 25+ year career as a journalist and continues to be a paid contributor to a well-respected local media outlet, unlike Tom, Dick or Harry writing a Facebook comment. Feel free not to read them.

Last edited by rocketphish; Feb 21, 2023 at 9:53 PM. Reason: Added detail
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  #683  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 1:09 AM
OTownandDown OTownandDown is offline
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Anyone notice how the City is planning it's park over the second "major attraction" site, and that before the NCC had even launched its request for proposal for that site (and the site that the Sens ultimately won)?
Remember the old adage: Park today, NIMBY's tomorrow!
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  #684  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 1:47 PM
Tesladom Tesladom is offline
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Also the Redblack's only have 8 home games plus a few pre-season and potential playoff games versus the Senators' 41 home games plus 4 to 5 pre-season and possibility of anywhere from 2 to 14 home games in the playoffs - not even close attendance wise.
Plus how many events, concerts etc?? The facility would host events on a minimum of 100 nights per year.
If this was a ballet auditorium, the Feds would pay 100% of it (yet nobody cares about ballet)

Instead of building a new arena at Landsdowne, I would be interested to see how they can incorporate a lower-bowl (more intimate) configuration for smaller events like 67's and small concerts & productions at the new arena.
Not sure if this has ever been done successfully - need something better than drapes over the upper bowls
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  #685  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 2:03 PM
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Great video for sure. Provides some excellent examples of how to integrate an arena within a mixed-use urban fabric quite nicely. It's interesting how he dislikes plazas though; I understand that they can sometimes be desolate wind-swept places however, they also serve an important purpose for crowd control and celebrations.

Some comments on his top ten:

Barclays

I find they did a great job integrating the arena on an odd shaped lot however, it's architecture is quite jarring. I would probably not want something that flashy at LeBreton.

Chase

Chase is another one that announces itself as an arena however, being behind a few buildings, it's not quite as bad. I also like how the plaza is protected by buildings on all four sides; probably not a necessity in San Fran, but that would be very appreciated in Ottawa's cold and windy winters.

Nationwide

A little plain for my taste, but well woven into the urban fabric. Wouldn't even know it's an arena.

Note, it's interesting that the street is named for Nationwide Insurance as well. Wonder if the City gets paid for the naming rights.

Madison Square Garden

No obvious parking, but I think that it's overrated on this list. Other than it's location and transit access, it doesn't really have any redeeming features. Worse when you remember what it replaced.

Little Caesars

They did a fantastic job making the facades look like a a series of individual buildings, creating a more interesting street front. Again, can't really tell it's an arena.

Molson Centre

It always looked like a building more than an arena, if maybe a bit on the plain side, but certainly having the new towers all around it has improved it's surroundings quite a bit.

American Airlines Centre

More of a traditional look, but not a huge fan. Seems to be in an awkward spot. Ground level seems quite dead.

MTS Centre

It's Portage Avenue is well done. Height matches some of the surrounding buildings, The architecture is nice, but not overstated. It has active usage on the street (though Moxies is set to close, or is closed). However, the other three faces are quite dead and desolate.

TD Garden

When it was built, the south face was a blank wall and that area once occupied by the old Boston Garden was a parking lot however, it was filled by new towers within the last decade, which hides the blank wall and the arena. Only an entrance between the two towers is now visible. For sure my favourite integration.

Capital One Arena

It fits well within a city block, it has two relatively active fronts. Architecture does suggest an arena, but not overly so. Pretty decent.

Ottawa made the list of dishonorable mentions, along with Calgary.

He mentioned Toronto and Vancouver in passing (something along the lines of, next is a Canadian arena, but certainly not...) but I find both deserve more respect. More than MSG and American Airlines at least. Vancouver is in an awkward spot between two highway ramps (for a highway that was never built) and has quite a bit of parking around it however, they did add a tower on the corner and across the viaduct, and it well served by transit.

ACC I quite like, with the Bay Street façade integrating an old Canada Post sorting plant (though no active use) and the Raptors Way face being obviously an arena, but not overbearing. Maple Leaf Square seems like a relatively interment public space. Having it between the tracks and the highway was well planned considering arenas usually have at least one blank/dead façade anyway.
Interesting comments. CityNerd's ranking was more about function than form. Regardless of how beautiful the building is, having it well integrated into the city's infrastructure (and not isolated in the middle of a massive parking lot) provides significant benefits. That is one area where I have issue with Randall Denley's editorial. While I don't think the city should be providing massive subsidies to the new owner of the Sens for construction of a new arena, targeted investments that improve its integration into the neighbourhood would provide significant long-term benefits. While I don't think a Palladium 2.0, this time in LeBreton, is likely, there are best practices and lessons to be learned from downtown arenas in other cities, some of which may not be of benefit to the city, but not worth investment by the new owner.
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  #686  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 2:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
Plus how many events, concerts etc?? The facility would host events on a minimum of 100 nights per year.
If this was a ballet auditorium, the Feds would pay 100% of it (yet nobody cares about ballet)

Instead of building a new arena at Landsdowne, I would be interested to see how they can incorporate a lower-bowl (more intimate) configuration for smaller events like 67's and small concerts & productions at the new arena.
Not sure if this has ever been done successfully - need something better than drapes over the upper bowls
Lansdowne needs the 67s and their venue to succeed. OSEG wouldn't move the 67s or BlackJacks, even if that means staying put at the Civic Centre. I'm sure it would still be possible for them to build towers on each side of the Civic Centre where the ramp systems are (replace them with stairs and elevators within the buildings).

That said, a few CHL teams play in (what were supposed to be) NHL arenas, such as the Hamilton Bulldogs and Rampart de Quebec.
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  #687  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Tesladom View Post
Instead of building a new arena at Landsdowne, I would be interested to see how they can incorporate a lower-bowl (more intimate) configuration for smaller events like 67's and small concerts & productions at the new arena.
Not sure if this has ever been done successfully - need something better than drapes over the upper bowls
I think that the answer is no, as junior teams need appropriately-sized arenas to succeed long term. There is room in this city for both venues.

The CHL is littered with teams that have failed in NHL-sized arenas. Currently Hamilton plays in a big arena, but that has not been a long-term success. In fact, they are now moving to Brantford for 3 years while the arena is being revamped. As mentioned, Quebec does, as do the Calgary Hitmen and Edmonton Oil Kings, but neither is in an ideal situation. Winnipeg Ice are playing in a 1600-seat arena rather than using the NHL rink.
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  #688  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 5:17 PM
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With all of that said, it's beneficial for us as a city to have both venues, different enough in size to avoid too much competition while both large enough to attract events and in some cases, maintain a collaboration for when multiple ice surfaces may be needed simultaneously.
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  #689  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 5:35 PM
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A great website to look at to understand the economic impact of stadiums/arenas (& the games that owners/politicians use to justify spending public dollars on them) is https://www.fieldofschemes.com/

The bottom line is that building these facilities has nowhere near the impact that they claim. This is especially true in cases where there is an existing arena that is being replaced. Building a new arena mainly just moves where people spend their money. There will likely be a few more concerts/events, but the overall impact of that when viewed from a city-wide perspective is much less than people think (due to the substitution effect of spending).
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  #690  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 5:59 PM
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A great website to look at to understand the economic impact of stadiums/arenas (& the games that owners/politicians use to justify spending public dollars on them) is https://www.fieldofschemes.com/

The bottom line is that building these facilities has nowhere near the impact that they claim. This is especially true in cases where there is an existing arena that is being replaced. Building a new arena mainly just moves where people spend their money. There will likely be a few more concerts/events, but the overall impact of that when viewed from a city-wide perspective is much less than people think (due to the substitution effect of spending).
In Ottawa's case, I'm not sure I agree. I believe a downtown rink with direct access to LRT will be a game changer for the before and after game atmosphere and therefore spending. I'd be willing to bet that spending will increase by at least a factor of two once the new rink is built vs the status quo. Season tickets are going to increase, walk-ups will turn-into standing only tickets, and IF the surrounding area is well established those venues will be jammed on most nights.

Currently when I go to Sens games, I eat beforehand then I travel across the city by car, park, go to the game, then get the heck out of there after it's done. I would rather spend the parking money on a few pints before/after the game.
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  #691  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 6:34 PM
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In Ottawa's case, I'm not sure I agree. I believe a downtown rink with direct access to LRT will be a game changer for the before and after game atmosphere and therefore spending. I'd be willing to bet that spending will increase by at least a factor of two once the new rink is built vs the status quo. Season tickets are going to increase, walk-ups will turn-into standing only tickets, and IF the surrounding area is well established those venues will be jammed on most nights.

Currently when I go to Sens games, I eat beforehand then I travel across the city by car, park, go to the game, then get the heck out of there after it's done. I would rather spend the parking money on a few pints before/after the game.
I'm I agree with you hear. If we were moving the Civic Centre or the stadium to LeBreton, I don't think it would have much overall impact to the economy since both areas are very similar in terms of what they offer (walkable urban environment with nearby entertainment options). The only clear benefit would be the far superior transit access. Guertin v. Slush Puppie was probably quite similar.

Kanata v. LeBreton, we're talking about an entirely different atmosphere and way of life. A parking lot with literally nothing of value nearby to an urban district with multiple other destinations that are easily reachable like Zibi, Little Italy, Downtown, the Market.
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  #692  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 6:58 PM
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The issue is that we are (or will be) seeking public $ support to build 2 arenas at the same time, one with 8000 and the other with 18000 seats
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  #693  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:22 PM
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The issue is that we are (or will be) seeking public $ support to build 2 arenas at the same time, one with 8000 and the other with 18000 seats
At the moment, OSEG is asking 100% funding for its $332-million stadium and arena to prop-up their development, on top of the $200 M+ we've already invested. Hopefully, the new Sens owners realize that the City is not interested in funding an NHL arena we won't own on top of our existing commitments.

Between what the NHL team owns in Kanata, naming rights on a new arena and whatever land they are given on LeBreton, hopefully they will have enough to privately fund the new home of the Sens. They could point to Edmonton or Calgary as examples of public funds going into private arenas when asking for cash however, those two teams were/are not sitting on 72+ acres of prime real-estate.

Minto bought 212 acres in Kanata last year for $245 million.


https://renx.ca/minto-buys-212-acres-dev-land-245-million-ottawa

I'm pretty confident the land around the Corel Centre could fetch $200 million due to its better location on the Queensway, higher density development potential (no way Minto will build towers in Stittsville) and future O-Train Station directly on site. And that's if they sell. Who knows how much profit they can make by building there themselves.
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  #694  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:33 PM
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I'm pretty confident the land around the Corel Centre could fetch $200 million due to its better location on the Queensway, higher density development potential (no way Minto will build towers in Stittsville) and future O-Train Station directly on site. And that's if they sell. Who knows how much profit they can make by building there themselves.
Land next to the highway is definitely going to carry a premium, though it might be less desirable for residential development. The estimate that I saw somewhere was $150 for the CTC and land, but it noted that the cost of demolition for the CTC is going to be significant and will lower the land value.
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  #695  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:34 PM
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The issue is that we are (or will be) seeking public $ support to build 2 arenas at the same time, one with 8000 and the other with 18000 seats
It's actually 5000 seats for the smaller one, but no doubt it will impact the level of support they get.

I've always thought that there is an avenue to get federal support at Lebreton if they can incorporate a national events centre element to the project.
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  #696  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 7:39 PM
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It's actually 5000 seats for the smaller one, but no doubt it will impact the level of support they get.

I've always thought that there is an avenue to get federal support at Lebreton if they can incorporate a national events centre element to the project.
Say it's for Toronto, and we may get Provincial support too!
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  #697  
Old Posted Feb 22, 2023, 8:16 PM
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Say it's for Toronto, and we may get Provincial support too!
Good idea. The Greater Greater Toronto Area Civic Centre.
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  #698  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 5:47 AM
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Good idea. The Greater Greater Toronto Area Civic Centre.
Just an hour* out of town.
* flight
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  #699  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 6:36 PM
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Hey Harley! You may get your Lebreton/Bayview film studio after all! Ryan Reynolds and Remington are proposing a film studio in Markham. Who knows, they might build one at LeBreton (or Kanata ).

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Studio Hub (in Markham) | ?m | ?s | Ryan Reynolds/Maximum Effort l possible construction start this year (?)

Ryan Reynolds and ‘Maximum Effort’ along with Markham-based Watford Group are replacing a (fallow) smaller studio proposal known as First Studio City, with a much more ambitious 1.2 million square foot studio complex in Markham. Construction is supposedly scheduled to begin sooner rather later (demand is much greater than supply).

Developers say it will be the largest film and TV production hub in Canada (not sure that's true).


Story: https://variety.com/2023/film/news/ryan-reynolds-maximum-effort-studio-toronto-1235531885/

No renderings yet - below is an old rendering of the much smaller First Studio City project originally proposed by Remington Group:

UT
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  #700  
Old Posted Feb 23, 2023, 7:07 PM
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In Ottawa's case, I'm not sure I agree. I believe a downtown rink with direct access to LRT will be a game changer for the before and after game atmosphere and therefore spending. I'd be willing to bet that spending will increase by at least a factor of two once the new rink is built vs the status quo. Season tickets are going to increase, walk-ups will turn-into standing only tickets, and IF the surrounding area is well established those venues will be jammed on most nights.

Currently when I go to Sens games, I eat beforehand then I travel across the city by car, park, go to the game, then get the heck out of there after it's done. I would rather spend the parking money on a few pints before/after the game.
I may not have been clear when I mentioned the substitution effect. The people going to events at the arena have a limited amount of money that they can spend each month. In the current situation they may be spending less at that event than they might (e.g. if there there were more/better options around the event) but that just means they (usually) spend that other money somewhere else (at some other time). There is no new money available to spend so there is no new economic activity when viewed at a city-wide level.
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