O-Train Line 2/4 [Stage 2 | Greenboro to Limebank/Airport] | In Service

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Moose will likely object to this proposal. It looks like the plan is to use "approach grades that accommodate DMU movements only with a regulatory exemption for Freight" and to plan for a future freight only route, that would cross VIA tracks with a new at-grade diamond crossing. The equipment Moose wants to use likely will need the freight only route, and the constriction costs for this route would likely be their responsibility.

The question would be, can a modern passenger locomotive towing three bi-level coaches climb a 4.5% grade through a regulatory exemption? I don't know, but it seems like a solid maybe? Of course, they could always just use DMUs. I don't think anyone would complain about that.

The cost associated with building the freight crossing would be on the City since it is their legal obligation to maintain freight access on the subdivision (unless they obtain an exemption). I wonder if this would also mean that the City is liable for building a bypass of Bayview station?

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

What standing would they have to object?

I expect trolling from them. Doubt it'd be effective though.

There isn't any legal standing. Like with CN and the Beachburg sub and unlike the PoW bridge, the city seems to have done their due diligence here. MOOSE may request the city to go with one of the alternatives which would include an overpass that is built to freight standards, but the city can just deny it (it would be more expensive).

However, if MOOSE is willing and able to provide the supplementary funding required to build the more expensive overpass, I can't see why the city would refuse.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

That was a latter addition to the plan. Local developers pledged $30 million to the project while the Ontario Liberals had promised to pay the $50 million balance part of their election campaign. Of course, they were voted out replaced with the PCs and Doug Ford who have promised funding for Stage 2, but never committed to this additional extension.

Since this is in a Conservative riding, I'd say the chances are good that it's pushed forward. Plus, it would be pretty dumb to turn down $30 million from the private sector (even though people buying homes in the area will ultimately foot the bill).

I was told at a presentation some weeks ago that the Liberals allocated the money before they left office and that the extension is proceeding under the assumption that it will be built.

[TransitZilla]

Originally Posted by roger1818

That is crazy! Why waste money on a temporary overpass? Why not just have a level crossing for now and build an overpass when Leitrim is realigned?

To be fair the Leitrim realignment is probably 20 years into the future, so while it will be temporary it will not be short lived.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

The question would be, can a modern passenger locomotive towing three bi-level coaches climb a 4.5% grade through a regulatory exemption? I don't know, but it seems like a solid maybe?

In good weather maybe. When the tracks are slippery, it might get stuck.

Of course, they could always just use DMUs. I don't think anyone would complain about that.

Joseph would. He is adamant that they need bi-level coaches.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Heavy rail equipment operating on track with stops closer to 5km apart, with all day 2-way headways < 30 mins. Looks like regional rail to me.

5 km apart? After stage 2, most of the stations will only be about 1km apart. The stations closest to 5km apart are South Keys to Leitrim at 4.75 km, though Uplands, on the airport spur, is between those. Leitrim to Bowesville is under 3km, as is Bowesville to Limebank. I guess the Confederation line will become regional Rail as well because it will be almost 4km from Montreal to Jeanne d'Arc. Heck, on Toronto's Lakeshore East line it is not just 5km but a full 8km from Union to Danforth, so it can't be lowly commuter rail, it must also be regional rail.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bradnixon

I doubt it.

Leitrim Road is planned to be realigned in the future to the south of the park and ride lot. The overpass to be constructed as part of Stage 2 will be throw-away when that realignment occurs.

The traffic problems in that area are mostly the result of a lack of intersection capacity at Leitrim/Albion and Leitrim/Bank. As I understand it, both intersections will be upgraded in 2019, with the Leitrim/Albion work bundled as part of Stage 2.

Of course the Trillium Line extension will help with the traffic issues as well.

I think you misunderstood. I was talking about the throw-away overpass. It still can't be built on the current ROW. Traffic needs to continue to flow and in the longer term, access still is needed to local businesses. All I was saying is the overpass has to built slightly to the north but right next to the current ROW.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by roger1818

In good weather maybe. When the tracks are slippery, it might get stuck.



Joseph would. He is adamant that they need bi-level coaches.

I'm not sure why Moose is so obsessed with bi-levels, other than maybe their plan involves buying old GO or AMT Exo equipment. DMU's seem like such a better option, and no special provisions are required like a seperate track to get across Via or Bayview.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

5 km apart? After stage 2, most of the stations will only be about 1km apart. The stations closest to 5km apart are South Keys to Leitrim at 4.75 km, though Uplands, on the airport spur, is between those. Leitrim to Bowesville is under 3km, as is Bowesville to Limebank. I guess the Confederation line will become regional Rail as well because it will be almost 4km from Montreal to Jeanne d'Arc. Heck, on Toronto's Lakeshore East line it is not just 5km but a full 8km from Union to Danforth, so it can't be lowly commuter rail, it must also be regional rail.

There is little need for extra stations while going through the Greenbelt. In the cases described, the train is going through the Greenbelt or other conservation land surrounding the airport. There is a possibility of another station between Limebank and Bowesville as that area is developed. Right now, the area is totally empty but that will change in the not too distant future.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by kmcamp

I'm not sure why Moose is so obsessed with bi-levels, other than maybe their plan involves buying old GO or AMT Exo equipment. DMU's seem like such a better option, and no special provisions are required like a seperate track to get across Via or Bayview.

I asked MOOSE directly on facebook a while ago about whether they've considered the FLIRT at all and from their answer it seems like vehicle selection isn't 100% final yet. It'll probably be something that gets finalized in the feasibility study. In the interim, most people in this area probably think of bi-levels when they think commuter rail, so it's a good selling point for MOOSE I guess?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

I asked MOOSE directly on facebook a while ago about whether they've considered the FLIRT at all and from their answer it seems like vehicle selection isn't 100% final yet. It'll probably be something that gets finalized in the feasibility study. In the interim, most people in this area probably think of bi-levels when they think commuter rail, so it's a good selling point for MOOSE I guess?

You're talking about something that is little more than an academic exercise to date and you think they know what rolling stock they'll be running?

They've not even funded a proper feasibility study yet.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

5 km apart? After stage 2, most of the stations will only be about 1km apart. The stations closest to 5km apart are South Keys to Leitrim at 4.75 km, though Uplands, on the airport spur, is between those. Leitrim to Bowesville is under 3km, as is Bowesville to Limebank. I guess the Confederation line will become regional Rail as well because it will be almost 4km from Montreal to Jeanne d'Arc. Heck, on Toronto's Lakeshore East line it is not just 5km but a full 8km from Union to Danforth, so it can't be lowly commuter rail, it must also be regional rail.

If you're sitting in a suburb outside the Greenbelt, the Confederation Line after Stage 2 will be closer to regional rail than a metro system, with 10 min headways mid-day on each branch beyond Lincol Fields.

And while Trillium maybe less than 5 km spacing, 3 km stop spacing on an LRT is extraordinary.

[OCCheetos]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

You're talking about something that is little more than an academic exercise to date and you think they know what rolling stock they'll be running?

They've not even funded a proper feasibility study yet.

Well every document and image they've published features bi-levels. Obviously part of the feasibility study would be to determine whether or not they'd actually use them, but so far their plan is still based around them for whatever reason.

[kmcamp]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you're sitting in a suburb outside the Greenbelt, the Confederation Line after Stage 2 will be closer to regional rail than a metro system, with 10 min headways mid-day on each branch beyond Lincol Fields.

And while Trillium maybe less than 5 km spacing, 3 km stop spacing on an LRT is extraordinary.

Is it? St Louis's Metrolink has an 7km gap between Scott AFB and College station, and then another 7k gap to Belleville. I'm sure i could find lots of other examples

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

If you're sitting in a suburb outside the Greenbelt, the Confederation Line after Stage 2 will be closer to regional rail than a metro system, with 10 min headways mid-day on each branch beyond Lincol Fields.

And while Trillium maybe less than 5 km spacing, 3 km stop spacing on an LRT is extraordinary.

I agree it isn’t LRT but why skip both Metro and Comuter Rail and call it regional rail? Makes me seriously wonder if you guys ever know what Regional rail is.

[OtrainUser]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree it isn’t LRT but why skip both Metro and Comuter Rail and call it regional rail? Makes me seriously wonder if you guys ever know what Regional rail is.

Actually you are right

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_rail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commuter_rail

O-Train definitely fits the definition of commuter rail.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I agree it isn’t LRT but why skip both Metro and Comuter Rail and call it regional rail? Makes me seriously wonder if you guys ever know what Regional rail is.

These definitions are a little fuzzy. And there's room for debate. In North America at least, I think Commuter Rail seems to imply only peak service or limited off-peak service. I don't think of the Trillium Line this way.

In any event, my point was that the Trillium Line isn't close to a traditional understanding of a metro or LRT. And calling it LRT or metro seems to almost set it up for failure, as people expect higher levels of service than it was intended to provide.

[OCCheetos]

So, from the computer simulation table we can see that it'll take around 30 minutes to get from Limebank to Bayview and ~21 minutes to get from Leitrim to Bayview. With an additional transfer on the Confederation Line adding ~5 minutes that makes a trip from Leitrim to Downtown roughly 26 minutes which is better than the current ~33 minutes by bus during peak periods and 1hr+ during off-peak hours. (Not to mention a whole lot more reliable).

If it wasn't obvious enough already, the south end will benefit a whole lot from the extension.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

These definitions are a little fuzzy. And there's room for debate. In North America at least, I think Commuter Rail seems to imply only peak service or limited off-peak service. I don't think of the Trillium Line this way.

I would consider the GO Trains commuter rail, yet many of the routes run all day every day, as do many lines to NYC and Boston. Having said that, the line is too short and the stations too close together to be considered commuter rail (and thus way to short and close together to be regional rail). Frequency of service is also on the high end for either definition (some cities, especially in Europe, have commuter rail that approach its frequency, but I am not aware of any regional rail lines that do).

In any event, my point was that the Trillium Line isn't close to a traditional understanding of a metro or LRT. And calling it LRT or metro seems to almost set it up for failure, as people expect higher levels of service than it was intended to provide.

I agree. The Trillium Line is a funny beast that doesn't fit any of the traditional definitions. It is closer to light metro than anything else IMHO. As others have said, we should just call it the O-Train and be done with it.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by OCCheetos

So, from the computer simulation table we can see that it'll take around 30 minutes to get from Limebank to Bayview and ~21 minutes to get from Leitrim to Bayview. With an additional transfer on the Confederation Line adding ~5 minutes that makes a trip from Leitrim to Downtown roughly 26 minutes which is better than the current ~33 minutes by bus during peak periods and 1hr+ during off-peak hours. (Not to mention a whole lot more reliable).

If it wasn't obvious enough already, the south end will benefit a whole lot from the extension.

It will be good for those who use the Park and Ride, but for commuters who take a bus from near their home, the extra transfer will add further delays, especially if the transfers aren't well coordinated. Considering the 1hr+ off-peak is due to a bad connection at Greenboro (actual travel time is 40 min), I don't have high hopes that the connection will be good. Encouraging everyone to drive to the LRT will contribute to the congestion in the south.

BRT would have given similar (if not better) travel times to LRT and would have allowed Connexion service to the Confederation Line, saving an extra transfer.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

It will be good for those who use the Park and Ride, but for commuters who take a bus from near their home, the extra transfer will add further delays, especially if the transfers aren't well coordinated. Considering the 1hr+ off-peak is due to a bad connection at Greenboro (actual travel time is 40 min), I don't have high hopes that the connection will be good. Encouraging everyone to drive to the LRT will contribute to the congestion in the south.

BRT would have given similar (if not better) travel times to LRT and would have allowed Connexion service to the Confederation Line, saving an extra transfer.

Have we got to this point when our goal is to get most people to use Park n Ride lots in the suburbs? How do we get TOD if we have a 500 spot parking lot next to the station. The Rivermead Park n Ride lot in Aylmer was mentioned on radio this morning saying that it is often full. This is the problem with Park n Ride lots. I know this is also an issue at Greenboro as well. It is easy for demand to exceed supply, which is another turn off with transit. Accessibility is not guaranteed.

You are describing how rail will be a disincentive to use local transit, which is disappointing. The rail option is so attractive to the city because we can save money on trunk rail service compared to BRT (fewer operators) and then cheap out on local neighbourhood transit on top of that. Make it unattractive so fewer people will want to use it. Then, eventually Park n Ride lots exceed capacity. A poor use of land nevertheless and it doesn't really get people out of their cars.

The previous quote of 5 minutes for Bayview to downtown is really an underestimate. We have to add 5 to 10 minutes each transfer (quoted on this board previously as the optimal transfer time). So, with two transfers (which must be included even if you are using a park n ride because you have to walk from your parking spot to the station and then wait for the next train), you have to add 10 to 20 minutes. In the case of the Trillium Line, we are looking at the higher end because of lower frequency. Look at how this compares to the 21 minute travel time from Leitrim. It could double it. Plus, the travel time into downtown, say 10 to 15 minutes, considering we also have to reach the sidewalk from the subway station. So, 21 + 20 + 10 = 51 minutes. Still better than current bus service but not as much as we think or hope. The return trip for those who don't use a park n ride is worse since the final bus transfer is not likely to be optimal.


For those living inside the Greenbelt in the south end, the Trillium Line option is worse than current bus service.