Centre Mall -> The Centre on Barton - Page 35

markbarbera · #**681** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 8:30 PM**

Who in their right mind would introduce more office space to a market with a 25% vacancy rate?

From what I recall, the food court is two storeys, with the second floor set aside as a community meeting space.

I am not sure when you last walked along Barton Street, but I'd estimate the retail vacancy rate to be close to 10%. Next time I walk down the road I'll count the empty storefronts and post the tally.

markbarbera · #**682** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 9:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

To clarify: Centre Mall is bordered by Barton St. E., Ottawa St. N., McAnulty Blvd and Kenilworth Ave N. on all these streets, the other side of the street is residential, not heavy industry (though industrial sites are kitty-corner to Centre Mall at its northeast and northwest corners).

Further clarification: The south side of Barton Street between Ottawa and Kenilworth is commercial, not residential. The east side of Kenilworth Avenue across from the development is a commercial/industrial mix, not residential (with the exception of four residential units between Harrison and Vansitmart) . And the north side of the property actually ends at the CN rail line, not McAnulty Boulevard as implied. The west side of Ottawa Street is a mix of residential and institutional.

ryan_mcgreal · #**683** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 9:09 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Further clarification

Thanks for the clarification. My point is that the mall is geographically close to heavy industry, but does not abut it directly on any side.

markbarbera · #**684** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 9:12 PM**

And my point is that proximity to heavy industry seriously limits the present redevelopment options for this site.

raisethehammer · #**685** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 9:55 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Who in their right mind would introduce more office space to a market with a 25% vacancy rate?

From what I recall, the food court is two storeys, with the second floor set aside as a community meeting space.

I am not sure when you last walked along Barton Street, but I'd estimate the retail vacancy rate to be close to 10%. Next time I walk down the road I'll count the empty storefronts and post the tally.

It looks like the new scotiabank in this project is two stories. must be office space for something.
I'd agree with 10% vacancy along Barton too.

crhayes · #**686** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 10:16 PM**

Obviously what it boils down to is the demographic that is going to be using the site, and how they can attract that demographic. I think it's safe to say that, as a developer trying to maximize the number of people using the site (and thus maximizing revenue for retailers), building big box stores was the obvious choice. Allowing people to drive to the location and park will more than likely bring them a lot more customers than the current set-up along Barton.

The way I see it is that many of these stores are not typical Ma' and Pa' shops that can be supported by the surrounding neighbourhoods. There are too many big box stores in this development that rely on attracting customers from all over the city, hell, possibly even other cities; I'm sure there are many people on this forum that traveled to Burlington to visit Ikea or Best Buy (before we got ours). Thus, a large parking surface is the only way to sustain this type of development.

Is it ideal for the city? No. Is it what we all wanted? No. However, we are not the ones with the money and thus, unfortunately, could not make these decisions.

I think another big factor is the state our public transit is in. If we had a more robust transit system I think a more urban development could have been a huge success. However, considering our dependency on cars (and it will likely be this way for MANY more years to come) it is no wonder developers choose to make complexes like this.

I am not advocating this development. For instance, they could have created a streetwall and built a parking lot behind it (and had front and rear entrances - why not???). I agree with the points that Ryan and Raisethehammer make, because we shouldn't settle for this. However, as Mark says it is an improvement over what was there, and it will at least be accessible to pedestrians.

raisethehammer · #**687** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 10:21 PM**

just to clarify, I'm not asking for the current set-up on Barton to happen on this site.
I would have been happy if these buildings would have been flipped around flush with the sidewalk all the way along Barton with most vehicle access into the centre of the site from Kenilworth or Ottawa.
I don't even care about big boxes in the back.
The Barton streetscape would have been so easy to do decently properly - even an ugly stucco building facing Barton would have been acceptable.
But the back of the building is just unacceptable.
And then of course, the entire car-centric development makes it even worse.

MsMe · #**688** Posted **Nov 24, 2008, 11:01 PM**

I wonder if they will put a sidewalk beside the tracks from one end to the other (Ottawa to Kenilworth). At least some of the shopping area would be easier to get around then, especially the disabled on scooters.

BrianE · #**689** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 12:11 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by raisethehammer

I would have been happy if these buildings would have been flipped around flush with the sidewalk all the way along Barton with most vehicle access into the centre of the site from Kenilworth or Ottawa.
I don't even care about big boxes in the back.
The Barton streetscape would have been so easy to do decently properly - even an ugly stucco building facing Barton would have been acceptable.
But the back of the building is just unacceptable.

EXACTLY!

I think this is all anyone really wanted from this development at a minimum. Is RTH's proposal really all that radical, would this building set up have really bankrupted RedCliffe? Would these simple changes made this site unusable to retailers and customers?

I think it would have vastly improved on the current setup. Not only that but it's not like this changes the number of buildings being built or complicating their construction. Just turn them around, it could have been done on the drawings. Construction workers don't care which way a building faces.

markbarbera · #**690** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 12:45 AM**

I have heard rumblings that some of the yet-to-be announced tenants include Winners, a home furnishing store (can't pin the brand down - hearing either Pier 1 or Home Outfitters), PetSmart, Indigo, Starbucks and Michaels. All would be warmly welcomed to the lower city. Can anyone confirm these rumours?

SteelTown · #**691** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 1:36 AM**

Wouldn't be surprised about Winners and Michaels.

raisethehammer · #**692** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 1:51 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I have heard rumblings that some of the yet-to-be announced tenants include Winners, a home furnishing store (can't pin the brand down - hearing either Pier 1 or Home Outfitters), PetSmart, Indigo, Starbucks and Michaels. All would be warmly welcomed to the lower city. Can anyone confirm these rumours?

"warmly welcomed"??
Is a foreign dignitary coming to Centre Mall? Lol.

adam · #**693** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 2:13 AM**

Well.. they are foreign owned companies! (But they'll give Canadians the privelege of working there for minimum wage)

matt602 · #**694** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 2:22 AM**

I'd definitely warmly welcome most of those stores.

BCTed · #**695** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 4:09 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I have heard rumblings that some of the yet-to-be announced tenants include Winners, a home furnishing store (can't pin the brand down - hearing either Pier 1 or Home Outfitters), PetSmart, Indigo, Starbucks and Michaels. All would be warmly welcomed to the lower city. Can anyone confirm these rumours?

I am having difficulty picturing a Starbucks --- I guess it would be attached to Indigo.

emge · #**696** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 4:31 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by markbarbera

I have heard rumblings that some of the yet-to-be announced tenants include Winners, a home furnishing store (can't pin the brand down - hearing either Pier 1 or Home Outfitters), PetSmart, Indigo, Starbucks and Michaels. All would be warmly welcomed to the lower city. Can anyone confirm these rumours?

Hmmm.. I don't know anything about here, but I didn't think Pier 1 was doing much expansion.. they were closing stores a year or two ago.

Millstone · #**697** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 5:06 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BCTed

I am having difficulty picturing a Starbucks --- I guess it would be attached to Indigo.

I was having a hard time picturing a Starbucks on Locke, but here we are.

FRM · #**698** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 5:41 AM**

A Winners would be great, I hate going to the one at Upper James. Crossing Barton to get to Winners will be easier than trying to cross Upper James, when taking the bus, and much faster and easier to get there from downtown.

Even though it might look like crap, this development will help steal away more shoppers from the lower city, who usually have to go to the mountain for these types of stores.

the dude · #**699** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 1:19 PM**

i hope michaels opens a store. i can take care of all my scrapbook shopping in one stop...

comadriver · #**700** Posted **Nov 25, 2008, 2:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan_mcgreal

We were critical of the redevelopment years ago. Now we're just trying to draw attention to its failings so we don't keep making the same mistake over and over again.

Have you ever wondered why no one ever listens? Hint: it's not because they are ignorant Hamilton-haters.

This thread, with rare exceptions, is not interested in reasonable discourse. We all have our biases, but frankly, this self-perpetuating negativity-drenched drivel is not constructive. As a newcomer to Hamilton, I truly hope the likes of raisthehammer have no real political or monetary influence outside this forum. (I suspect they do not).

Cheers guys, have fun wasting your breath.