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  #681  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2009, 11:08 PM
adam adam is offline
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I'm with Highwater on the city hall location issue Correlation does not imply causation. These are all symptoms of the same problem. Counsellors who are passionate about the suburbs in a one-track kind of way are never going to be good for the downtown no matter where they work.

If the forecourt gets a skating rink and we can cut down a lane or two of traffic on that section of Main St by adding a parking lane and carpool and/or bike lanes, then we have a chance to integrate city hall with the downtown. Nobody will use the forecourt if it is next to the current highway (actually its wider than many sections of the 403 right now)
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  #682  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 12:55 AM
geoff's two cents geoff's two cents is offline
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I can sympathize with both coalminecanary and highwater. In fact, it would be great if the city had kept its original location in the core, in which case this discussion would not be necessary at all.

At the end of the day, however, I'm with highwater on this one. The city hall is where it is, and at the end of the day, it would be most expedient to work with that. The more unanimity there is on the need to keep city hall respectable as a symbol of civic pride (ie. limestone and steel instead of concrete and aluminum; fountains, an ice rink, etc.), I think the more action we can expect from councilors. Ultimately, abandoning the existing building for something completely different is something that is not going to fly with the rest of the city, and we don't want to end up with a disgusting compromise (ie. a renovated HCC interior with an unrenovated exterior) as a result. The need to improve the existing structure is something everyone in the city can understand, while councilors might have a harder time justifying a "poor city"'s expenditure of dollars on something that opponents will inevitably tout as superfluous.

Why not give this cloud a silver lining? There's a chance that a revived city hall forecourt (complete with cafe, fountains, some decent landscaping, maybe even an alteration to its hideous rear parking and maintenance set-up - though I understand that this is not on the current agenda) will have positive spin-offs for the area across the street, especially if Main is ultimately traffic-calmed with street-side parking, wider sidewalks, LRT - and, hell, why not, even a proper cross-walk directly across from the main entrance. Again, the sooner we, Hamilton's transit intelligentsia (in residence or expat), cultivate a sense of unanimity on the need to improve this area, the better our hope that city leaders will act decisively and to good effect. As highwater put it, my Hamilton includes that hideous stretch of Main - an area, incidentally, that is rife with empty lots and ripe for redevelopment, while still being close enough to the historic core to count for something.

Vancouver might serve as a useful precedent here. The current city hall was relocated far from downtown (much farther than its Hamiltonian counterpart) in the mid to late 1930s. Given that this was a city that came of age with the automobile, this was no doubt a tribute to the burgeoning suburbs south of the city. From pictures I've seen, it truly was the boonies at the time it was built. Today, however, the Cambie city hall is right in the middle of a vibrant Broadway commercial and entertainment district. Given the much closer proximity of the Hamilton city hall to the historic city core, there seems to be that much more chance that, if revitalized, it will positively impact the automobile-dominated wasteland around it.

Hamilton's current facility was - make no mistake - built with the SOV commuter in mind: good roadway (or freeway) connections to the suburbs, a giant parking lot, and an exaggerated footprint better suited to the sticks than a densely-built, nineteenth-century downtown. I see no reason, however, why this cannot be changed. At any rate, the current predicament presents an excellent opportunity to do so.

How's that for optimism?
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  #683  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 1:02 AM
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If you look at the new Engineering Building at Mac facing Main St you'll see cement looking like marble facade on the main floor. It's actually not that bad and it's smooth and kinda has a shine to it. This is not to show support for cement over limestone though.
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  #684  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 5:05 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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I appreciate the optimism about Main St revitalization, but in the end, all of those traffic calming, two-way, transit and pedestrian improvements - if they happen at all - are years down the road if not decades.To make it worse, putting the council back into that ivory tower and once again isolating them from the people downtown is not going to speed up their desire to change that street.

This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?
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  #685  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 5:07 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Originally Posted by adam View Post
I'm with Highwater on the city hall location issue Correlation does not imply causation. These are all symptoms of the same problem. Counsellors who are passionate about the suburbs in a one-track kind of way are never going to be good for the downtown no matter where they work.
This is akin to giving up. So, we send them back to business as usual or we can expose them directly to urban matters and hope that a few slivers of light get through their blinders... That is my optimism.
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  #686  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 5:11 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Originally Posted by geoff's two cents View Post
The city hall is where it is, and at the end of the day, it would be most expedient to work with that. [...] Ultimately, abandoning the existing building for something completely different is something that is not going to fly with the rest of the city, and we don't want to end up with a disgusting compromise (ie. a renovated HCC interior with an unrenovated exterior) as a result.
I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless - and in the end, it will be the same place as it always was. That's a lot of money for very very little return. Or we can spend the same amount - or likely less - and try something new. Get in a decent architect - maybe D&S (the camco guys) and turn the bones of HCC into something fantastic that we can be proud of, not to mentio take an acrtive role for a change in trying to revitalize the core. The only reason this idea wouldn't fly with the rest of the city is if it cost more - which it doesn't have to and if done properly, won't.
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  #687  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 5:14 PM
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?
If you think HCC is great for a new City Hall and McMaster should take over the current City Hall why not reverse this and have McMaster take over HCC instead.
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  #688  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 6:04 PM
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I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless -
I disagree that the building is architecturally meaningless.
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  #689  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 6:48 PM
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
This still doesn't answer the question of what will happen to gore, jackson and james north when the HCC is essentially emptied of all life in one fell swoop. I'm curious about how you see this unfolding for these spaces?
I think the move of those people will be at least somewhat offset by the people who'll be in the Lister Block across the street.
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  #690  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 9:06 PM
adam adam is offline
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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
If you look at the new Engineering Building at Mac facing Main St you'll see cement looking like marble facade on the main floor. It's actually not that bad and it's smooth and kinda has a shine to it. This is not to show support for cement over limestone though.
Cement can look just as good as limestone if it has a high quality aggregate. If the city is using limestone aggregate for City Hall they sure haven't told anyone. They are trying to save as much money as possible. It will end up looking like the cement on Hamilton Place instead.
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  #691  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 9:30 PM
geoff's two cents geoff's two cents is offline
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Originally Posted by coalminecanary View Post
I guess my problem is we wil lend up dropping 100 million on this building and end up with something shinier, yet architecturally meaningless - and in the end, it will be the same place as it always was. That's a lot of money for very very little return. Or we can spend the same amount - or likely less - and try something new. Get in a decent architect - maybe D&S (the camco guys) and turn the bones of HCC into something fantastic that we can be proud of, not to mentio take an acrtive role for a change in trying to revitalize the core. The only reason this idea wouldn't fly with the rest of the city is if it cost more - which it doesn't have to and if done properly, won't.
It would be a work of genius, indeed, if HCC could be turned into something as iconic as the current vacant structure. It would also be something if McMaster expressed any interest whatsoever in undertaking any expense to renovate said structure (my gut feeling is that it will just sit empty, and maybe eventually be torn down if the city doesn't use it). If not for these "if"s, I must say that I'm generally in favor of a downtown city hall, and can sympathize with everyone who wants it there. The devil, of course, is in the details. . .
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  #692  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 10:39 PM
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OK, they've committed to paying these contractors some money if they cancel the contract. If they pay them this sum of money, the same sum of money they would have lost, could the contractors actually do some work with that money rather than it just line their pockets as a penalty fee?

Do they still need to actually complete all the renovations? Could they not scale them back for the time being? Could they just say, "OK, contractor guys and gals, here's some money, do the work to the outside, make sure the building is externally maintained to withstand the elements and we can deal with the innards another day?"

The City Hall building does look like it's off the Thunderbirds. It could perhaps be leased to an Organisation committed to Global Domination? I still say it could be used as a public building to encourage tourism of some kind. A national gallery, museum or something totally off the wall, but something that makes people say, we must visit Hamilton and see "that".

The staff could then stay at City Mall for a longer period of time, secure in the knowledge that the City Hall isn't going to fall down due to neglect (not uncommon in Hamilton it seems )

To be honest, I'm not entirely fussed where the Council are located. I'm sure that some of them are out of touch enough that it won't matter where they cast their votes. What I am fussed about is whether or not the removal of their staff from City Mall in the near(ish) future will damage the local economy in these fagile times, which could last long beyond the renovation timescale. These people have relatively secure and reasonably well paid jobs, am sure some of them are making purchases in their breaktimes or lunch hours or flextimes that are benefitting the local businesses in some way.

Perhaps there needs to be a thread (is there one?) for uses for City Mall once the City Hall people move out of it (if they ever do)? Seeing as everyone thinks that it's ugly 80s crappy architecture, as is a lot of the JS area, perhaps a good bit of tactical demo?
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  #693  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2009, 11:04 PM
coalminecanary coalminecanary is offline
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Originally Posted by block43 View Post
I disagree that the building is architecturally meaningless.
That is not what I meant - I mean by the time they are done cutting corners it will only barely resemble the original architect's vision. The Historical retoration group has already backed out, so you can be sure that wherever a few yards of concrete can be used to cut a corner, it will. We will dump a lot of money into this and will only get a newer building in return - not a restored one - and one that is less architecturally and historically important than what we started with.

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Originally Posted by SteelTown View Post
If you think HCC is great for a new City Hall and McMaster should take over the current City Hall why not reverse this and have McMaster take over HCC instead.
Because my main argument is that we need to prevent our city hall from offering an easy "escape" from downtown issues for non-downtown councillors. Main West physically encourages councillors to drive in and drive out without stepping foot on any public street. Plus, putting city hall back where it originally was and where it always should have been. Plus I don't believe McMaster actually cares. Maybe we should court another school - Ryerson?

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Originally Posted by FairHamilton View Post
I think the move of those people will be at least somewhat offset by the people who'll be in the Lister Block across the street.
It may be as far as number of employees in the area - except aht some of the lister employees will just be moving across the street from the right house I believe.

I don't mean "what happens to HCC" in terms of number of employees in the area, what concerns me is emptying HCC and leaving only a half dozen tenants, resulting in the building being mothballed or worse, torn down. This is a case where hte city could act as a good urban citizen and take a key block downtown and actively develop it into something beneficial to the entire core.
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  #694  
Old Posted Jan 24, 2009, 2:50 AM
bornagainbiking bornagainbiking is offline
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Pro HCC Imagine that?

I used to walk the downtown daily and used the gym in JS. I also used to cut thru HCC. I hear some say here that there is no real increse in traffic. Well try walking gthe streets other than 9-5.
I used to see the rummies and smell the Listerine at 6 in the morning. The lower food court empty and the rummies had control of the tables. ALL the concessions in that area were hanging by a thread, and there were very few. So you tell me there is no advantage absolute BULL.........
Again is it so bad that the civil servants or public servants and that include the alderpeople have to mix with the common folk. They complain about a parking spot, well like everyone else like the nurses @ HGH pay for one. Ther are deals down there.
HCC/JS is a mall a meeting place.
The most unusual twist to this is that recently someone mentioned that it would be a PLUS to have the open area in HCC used as a atrium or courtyard which is already there as well as an outside patio on top of JS.
And some nitwit suggest DUH maybe we can build an enclosed courtyard at Cityhall.
People can combine a trip to HCC but the City hall has NOTHING there for people other than city business.
So with a farmers market, movie theatre, food courts(s), library and gym add a food store and the staff could grocery shop at lunch.
I realize HCC may be dead but it just makes so much sense.
It will bring condos as you would have a version of a Limeridge Mall near the transportation hub.
Maybe fix up the city hall to basics and sell it so there would be no penalty just a redefined goal for the contractors.
The Liberals just cancelled the chopper deal and it did cost plenty. Have the reno go towards what ever the new tenant(s) wants built or set up to order.
I know this would be a stretch but make the City Hall the Transportation Hub. Route all the buses out of the two level parking lot, between Hunter and Main, Bay and james. Just think next to the Go station.. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Rent the upper offices (HUB) to Mcmaster or School board overflow.
Heck more Condos
I just thought of something, if they move back to City Hall and build the glass enclosure it would just act as another filter or barrier to separate the citizens from the public servants, who would benefit and gain the most from this. Tax dollars to indulge the very people who serve the masses. Starting to sound like "one flew over the cuckoos nest".
Nice quiet indoor picnic area with a moot for staff to brown bag it. No business for downtown. Drive to work, enter City Dome, go home....................

Last edited by bornagainbiking; Jan 24, 2009 at 2:59 AM. Reason: watched City hall video
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  #695  
Old Posted Jan 27, 2009, 11:32 AM
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You want a rink? Look down the road a ways.

Mississauga civic square revamp hits 'right notes'

Quote:
A key feature is an expanded skating rink worthy of the GTA's second-largest city; not the tiny one that exists today, which McCallion complains gets quickly overloaded.

The concept also attempts to link what is essentially two squares today: the one in front of city hall with the rinky-dink rink and the other beside the Mississauga Public Library. Today, they're separated not only by City Centre Dr., but also different grade levels.

The goal would be to bring them to almost the same grade so the street could be closed off for major events and both squares turned into one grand one. Other features of the design include a large open lawn, an extended art gallery, a redeveloped amphitheatre, a café on the square, a permanent concert and event stage, a marketplace and a glorified signature entrance to city hall – not the hodgepodge of nondescript entrances that exists today.
Those "tiny" and "rinky-dink" rink comments smart a bit (if my estimates are correct, it's about a third larger than the size of the one Hamilton has proposed) but there's a familiar note:

Quote:
...it's unclear who will pay.

Mississauga has committed to coughing up $10 million to $14 million, but the rest, council and staff hope, will be covered through the traditional one-third-each funding from Ottawa and Queen's Park.
Granted, a huge parking lot may have more potential than the shoulder of a highway. But still, this seems like another case of not misunderestimating Mississauga. Our pols could learn a thing or three about making the best of a bad situation.

Here's a Backgrounder on and Concept Diagram of Mississauga's Civic Square proposal (both PDF).
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  #696  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 8:16 PM
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City Hall Renovation Wow-Factor Still Alive
Ken Mann
2/2/2009

A "wow-factor" addition to the city hall renovations is still alive.

Hamilton's public work's committee has voted 5-to-3 in favour of spending two million dollars to build a glassed-in area of the forecourt under council chambers. The project now goes to city council for final approval.

The idea is to create an all-season gathering place.

Supporters add that they would pay for the enhancement with federal infrastructure funding.
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  #697  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 9:28 PM
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The idea is to create an all-season gathering place.
First of all, who do they forsee gathering at City Hall? Sports teams, general everyday people looking to kill a few hours, people protesting, wine & cheese soirees? Who?

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Supporters add that they would pay for the enhancement with federal infrastructure funding.
I would have preferred they'd have used that money for proper building cladding (marble or limestone).........
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  #698  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2009, 9:37 PM
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I would have preferred they'd have used that money for proper building cladding (marble or limestone).........
It does seem quite a slap in the face, especially to those who actually campaigned and pledged money.

Add to the fact about all the fuss about "today's economic climate" and the entire project seems like a frivolous waste of money that would be better spent elsewhere. Enclose the forecourt in the future if it really is something they want to do. They don't have to do it now.
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  #699  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 2:40 AM
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... and for half a mil more, they could have faced the building in limestone, for a much more effective "wow effect".
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  #700  
Old Posted Feb 3, 2009, 2:43 AM
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This city is so badly mismanaged it's not even funny.
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