Halifax Transit

[hfx_chris]

Certainly doable, but given the numbers I think it makes more sense to divert the resources to other routes.

[Dmajackson]

HalifaxNewsNet.ca Article

Residents fight to prevent Willett Street bus terminal
Published on November 3rd, 2010

A group of Clayton Park residents aren’t willing to give up their fight to prevent a new bus terminal from being built on Willett Street.

On Monday, Chebucto Community Council voted 3 to 2 in favour of the Willett Street site proposal to replace the overcrowded Lacewood terminal

...

[halifaxboyns]

I lived in Clayton Park for years and frankly; that park was hardly ever used. I saw only a few people here and there and then at night kids would go to get drunk and stoned.

So frankly; they could get rid of it and I wouldn't care.

The reason the staff report recommended this site was mainly because most if not all the routes travel along Willet Street, where as few go along Lacewood or Dunbrack. So if you chose any of those sites, you'd have to factor into the equation additional driving distance of routes that wouldn't normally go along these routes and the additional time. It would probably only be a few minutes, but when you are trying to compete with cars - a few minutes can be important.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

I lived in Clayton Park for years and frankly; that park was hardly ever used. I saw only a few people here and there and then at night kids would go to get drunk and stoned.

Sounds a lot like the "wilderness park" behind the Dartmouth Sportsplex people were trying to save.

[ScovaNotian]

I am wondering whether an expansion of the terminal at the current location really has been impossible all along. The part of the strip mall that's between the bus stop and the gas station at the corner had sat almost empty and unrenovated for a long while, until maybe a year back. The entire rest of the mall had been renovated earlier. Even the gas station at the corner hasn't been there for more than a couple of years I think. It wouldn't have been cheap to buy those lots, but seeing that the location at Willett requires 3 million dollars in site prep it's not really a bargain either.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by ScovaNotian

I am wondering whether an expansion of the terminal at the current location really has been impossible all along. The part of the strip mall that's between the bus stop and the gas station at the corner had sat almost empty and unrenovated for a long while, until maybe a year back. The entire rest of the mall had been renovated earlier. Even the gas station at the corner hasn't been there for more than a couple of years I think. It wouldn't have been cheap to buy those lots, but seeing that the location at Willett requires 3 million dollars in site prep it's not really a bargain either.

I had thought about that too; there are a couple of problems with that scenario. Let's say the empty building (former CIBC) between the stop and gas station could accommodate the terminal for 15 years growth. The problem would be the traffic pattern configuration. Right now you have buses coming up Lacewood and making a left turn onto Private Property to get to the stop (and a part of the stop on Private land). The internal intersection by the Tim Horton's is already a nightmare when the Tim's is busy so if you threw into the mix buses trying to go in and out to the former CIBC site in such a short turning space - it seems to me to be a recipe for traffic jams. You'd end up with cars stacked out into the intersection and buses not able to get in and out easily. Plus you'd have to reconfigure the exit point out onto willet because you'd have the access road to the mall, access point to the bus stop and the gas station all one after the other.

The other problem is the gas station itself. If you bought both properties and put the station on the corner - you'd still have to perform (at minimum) a level 1 environmental site assessment to check for leaks from the underground storage tanks. Add to that; if any of them leaked - before you could build anything you'd have to remove any contaminated soil from the site; which could (emphasis could) add to the cost.

Assuming a EA showed no contamination; you probably could put the terminal there, but you would still need an easement over the private land to get the buses into the site because you'd have two many access points off Willet in close proximity to the Williet/Lacewood intersection. I can tell you with reasonable certainty that it doesn't meet the standards now (with the mall and gas station accesses so close); so adding the bus terminal would probably make it worse. Plus you couldn't avoid accessing private land to get to the station which is one of the things Metro Transit wants to try to avoid if possible (although the fact that the Tantallon Station is on private land shows that it can't always be avoided).

That's just my take it on it - but I'd assume it would be something along these lines that would have ruled the sites out.

[halifaxboyns]

Interesting report going to regional council tonight.
Talks about future service of the ferry system.
You can find it here.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by halifaxboyns

Interesting report going to regional council tonight.
Talks about future service of the ferry system.
You can find it here.

Ferry service to Bedford, 5+ years off.

Back in 2003 they had a trial run and it was "any day now". I guess the plan is just to do nothing and build a huge part of the city that basically has no viable transit service.

[beyeas]

exactly. Reports like this seem like nothing but political masturbation.
It makes them feel good, but months later they've got nothing to show for it but more reports.

[halifaxboyns]

I remember when DMJackson visited and we talked about the ferry to Bedford issue. For me, there is a population issue that Bedford has that makes either a high speed ferry or train service difficult.

Bedford's population density isn't that big - but the new subdivision that will go up by the RIM offices will help. Now; if you add into the mix Sackville - then that can help. For me; I don't think Bedford and Sackville has quite reached the critical level of population just yet.

That being said; there is nothing wrong with now, doing the work to determine the routing and what vessel would make sense not only for the existing crossings but also for these long range crossing (Shannon, Bedford and Purcell's Cove).

The ferry terminal design was certainly interesting. The idea of 5 years to get service out to Bedford probably assumes construction time of the terminal and the ferries themselves as well. I must admit I haven't fully read the report; I wasn't feeling the greatest. The other issue is that with the redevelopment plan for Mill Cove would require construction be occuring before the terminal to be built, thus putting huge density on the site to encourage ferry use. So I would think the 5 years would include that as well.

[Dmajackson]

Very basic calculation but I think this is accurate. The land area of Bedford minus the huge chunks undeveloped around Magazine Hill/Anderson Lake and Jack's Lake/Rifle Range equals around 25.68km sq. The 2006 census has 16'600 pegged as the population so adding in numbers for the growth primarily in Bedford South I'll use 18'000, 20'000, and 22'000 as the current population. With these numbers the density is around 700, 780 or 860 ppl/km sq.

Bedford ~ 700-860
Clayton Park & Fairview ~ 3255
Lower Sackville ~ 1464
Eastern Passage ~ 700
North-End ~ 2640

Of course a Bedford ferry would be able to draw people from Lower Sackville and Hammonds Plains at the very least. The community is at the lower end but after dismissing the 10 years of neglect the population today could probably handle a mass transit system and the approved growth provides more fuel for the fire.

Given the horrible traffic nightmare that is Bedford a BRT is unlikely to be effective which leaves a ferry or LRT system (either or which would be fine IMO).

Although I wasn't able to calculate the density for Purcell's Cove it is safe to say it would be on the low end with Eastern Passage so at the very least the people out there demanding service can be told their communities are too small.

I'd personally say get the Clayton Park BRT into service in the next two years. The ferry terminal and boats can start construction at the end of that timeframe (at the latest) to allow service entry in 2014. Then Woodside can get its additional ferry, followed by BRT for Spryfield.

[someone123]

The population densities are fine. Before is fairly developed now and either way a system would be built by feeding in buses and constructing park and ride facilities. This was already the subject of a study for the fast ferry and the suggestion was that it would be viable.

Even if we concluded that the population wasn't there, what about planning for the future? Why is the HRM allowing these subdivisions to be laid out in such a way that they will be difficult to service? Why aren't they looking at doing things like preserving ROWs for future transit in newly developed areas? Why aren't they ensuring that new development is dense enough to service effectively?

The problem here isn't population densities or the size of the city, it's the fact that there isn't enough money being invested in transit. Meanwhile, multiple interchanges and other pieces of highway infrastructure are being built at $10-20M apiece. Another issue is that there is pressure to reduce densities in new development. Part of this is because people think lower densities mean less traffic but they are dead wrong.

[macgregor]

Re: Metro Transit Strategic Ferry Operations Plan

I think this is an important step to improving the main ferry service. Naturally, I don't get too excited until I see actual progress, but a plan is the first step towards real progress (and as a taxpayer, I would rather them plan before acting).

The Bedford Ferry issue has indeed been sitting forever and needs to be addressed. Without any numbers its hard for me to judge if there are enough people to make this cost effective or if a BRT would be better.

However, I do think that improvement of the main two ferry routes is very important. With three ferries in service, there are three times a year that one of the boats will be in refit. At these times there are only two main ferries in service, and as we saw a few weeks ago, if one breaks down, one of the routes gets shut down, and huge inconveniences follow. Another ferry is definitely needed to allow for occasional breakdowns and repairs and to increase service frequency.

The terminals themselves also need a lot of work. The seats are awful and the access doors/routes work as chokepoints and add hassle to getting to your destination. There should be a wide easy route to where people need to go: Lower Water Street bus station, downtown offices + Scotia Square bus station (over +15s or the concrete bridge over Lower Water).

Both improvements will increase utilization and get people off bridges. All of this will probably be much cheaper than a third bridge.

[halifaxboyns]

I guess I should clarify that when I think of population density; I'm stuck in the 'Calgary' model - so if I look at Heritage Station along the LRT, there is 2 20 storey apartment buildings right there and many other high density projects around it. Looking at Bedford overall, by quick glance is much lower density to me.

That being said; the population could be there - I won't dispute that. I think the proposed infill project that would include the ferry terminal would further support the ferry; but I would think you'd still need the infill island project done just to get the terminal in place wouldn't you?

You can easily establish a network of feeder routes out from Mill Cove to Bedford and Sackville, that should be no problem.

Where I think the ferry service lacks a lot of cohesion and usage is it's main Dartmouth Terminals, Woodside and Alderney Landing. Alderney landing would be a great catolyst to increase density in downtown Dartmouth and King's Wharf and that guy's project nearby to get more High Density are a good start. It's Woodside that is lacking and always has been. It always seems to be an after thought (at least to me). I'd like to see that run conventional service, but I'd also like to see a lot more density in that area and certainly the new residential community going up will help. But I think you could easily take down the old chocolate factory and turn that into either some 5 to 10 storey office towers or similar sized residential. They dont' even have to be tall, if they can be wide and still get the same density numbers, then right on.

[beyeas]

So I am sure it was just my eyes fooling me, but I was waiting in line at the Robie Street Timmie's in the Infirmary staring out the window, and thought I saw I double articulated MT bus go by. Surely that was just that I need new glasses... or is it? Does anyone know if MT bought a double-articulated???

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

So I am sure it was just my eyes fooling me, but I was waiting in line at the Robie Street Timmie's in the Infirmary staring out the window, and thought I saw I double articulated MT bus go by. Surely that was just that I need new glasses... or is it? Does anyone know if MT bought a double-articulated???

Would that have 3 sections? If so, it sounds like a train on wheels.

[beyeas]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

Would that have 3 sections? If so, it sounds like a train on wheels.

Indeed. And I think it must have been a trick of my eyes. They do exist in south america, germany, sweden... but I don't think there are any in North America now that I have looked around on the net, and certainly Nova buses only make the single articulated.

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Indeed. And I think it must have been a trick of my eyes. They do exist in south america, germany, sweden... but I don't think there are any in North America now that I have looked around on the net, and certainly Nova buses only make the single articulated.

In that case the HRM will have to stick with the old ones


(source: http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3wR4B..._transport/odds_and_ends/n/pic18.jpg&t=1 )


Sometime in the future they can move on to one of these:


(source: http://nachosatmidnight.com/ )

[Dmajackson]

I was on route 66 over the weekend and had a long time to think about transit service in HRM, particularily Bedford.

In this month's schedule adjustments MT is reducing frequency in Bedford on the two newer routes (88 & 89). When these buses are removed from service since there is clear demand for better frequency and routing on other local routes in Bedford the buses should be reused in town potentially for a new route.

There is no doubt in my mind a Bedford - Bridge bus would be well used. To reduce overlapping with other routes in the area I think routing like this would work best;

Bridge Terminal - Wyse - Albro Lake - Victoria - Highfield Terminal - Victoria - Windmill - Dartmouth - Sunnyside Terminal - Bedford Hwy - Convoy - Waterfront - (future) Ferry Terminal - Bedford Hwy - Hammonds Plains - Innovation - Gary Martin - (future) 4pad Arena Park 'N Ride

This routing services all existing and planned major roads in Bedford (excluding possible Bedford South Park 'N Ride). It overlaps a few routes but none for a very long time. To start 1 hour headways (30 min peak hours) would be introduced and for naming purposes Dartmouth bound it would be 90 - Bridge and Bedford bound it would be 90 - Bedford.

[hfx_chris]

Originally Posted by beyeas

Indeed. And I think it must have been a trick of my eyes.

I'm afraid so