Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec already has all of this though it doesn't apply to signage most of the time. Ontario OTOH does pretty good at bilingual signage at least in some areas but there never seems to be anyone who can speak French! But I might ask what's more important? A faded sign that says ENTRÉE- ENTRANCE or actually being able to speak to a human being in your language to conduct your transaction?

Anyway, Quebec has perhaps more policies and laws on services and rights for the minority language than any other province, and believe it or not many of them are guarantees as opposed to restrictions.

Really? So please tell where the bilingual service regions are in Quebec? And where are the bilingual driver's licenses and health cards? Ontario French language services is more than a faded bilingual sign (that's more likely to be found in QC) and you are being very disingenuous for making that comment.

So, English Quebeckers have more language rights than Acadians in New Brunswick? I think not.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Yes, your familiar BS.

...

Actually, scratch that last comment. You're not worth it.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Really? So please tell where the bilingual service regions are in Quebec? And where are the bilingual driver's licenses and health cards? Ontario French language services is more than a faded bilingual sign (that's more likely to be found in QC) and you are being very disingenuous for making that comment.

So, English Quebeckers have more language rights than Acadians in New Brunswick? I think not.

English Quebeckers have more access to services in English than Acadians. This is because well they speak English. You can get some kind of service in English in any part of Quebec. A St. John business is very likely not to have someone who can serve you in French.

Of course Quebec's faded Bievenue Welcome Wilkomen Bienvenido signs look ridiculous as does it's unilingual French Highway direction signs when almost everywhere else save North Korea probably has English on such signs but that is the Quebec complex and something we need to accept.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Really? So please tell where the bilingual service regions are in Quebec? And where are the bilingual driver's licenses and health cards? Ontario French language services is more than a faded bilingual sign (that's more likely to be found in QC) and you are being very disingenuous for making that comment.

So, English Quebeckers have more language rights than Acadians in New Brunswick? I think not.

Quebec does not have to follow the Ontario model with designated service regions and shiny new EAST-EST on highway signs in order for the minority to have a greater ability to be served and indeed live in its own language.

Quebec has multiple anglophone hospitals and also bilingual hospitals. Ontario has one: Montfort. Quebec has several anglophone universities and Ontario has none (effectively).

Ontario even has issues with providing bilingual 911 operators in 70% francophone regions like Prescott-Russell, and has had francophone women see sexual assault charges dropped against their rapist because for some reason the court couldn't find an interpreter who spoke French. In Northern Ontario!

Francophone parents in Ontario have been told by social workers that they can't speak to their kids in French because the unilingual anglophone social worker can't understand what is being said, and they supposedly don't have anyone who can.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec does not have to follow the Ontario model with designated service regions and shiny new EAST-EST on highway signs in order for the minority to have a greater ability to be served and indeed live in its own language.

Quebec has multiple anglophone hospitals and also bilingual hospitals. Ontario has one: Montfort. Quebec has several anglophone universities and Ontario has none (effectively).

Ontario even has issues with providing bilingual 911 operators in 70% francophone regions like Prescott-Russell, and has had francophone women see sexual assault charges dropped against their rapist because for some reason the court couldn't find an interpreter who spoke French. In Northern Ontario!

Francophone parents in Ontario have been told by social workers that they can't speak to their kids in French because the unilingual anglophone social worker can't understand what is being said, and they supposedly don't have anyone who can.

Yes but the bilingual signage let's you know you're in the real Canada and you can feel safe with that knowledge.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec has multiple anglophone hospitals and also bilingual hospitals. Ontario has one: Montfort. Quebec has several anglophone universities and Ontario has none (effectively).

"Multiple" anglophone hospitals makes it sound like the province is festooned with them. I wager there is only a small handful, and only in Montreal. Also, just how anglophone are these hospitals? Certainly these are facilities where anglophones can receive service in their language of choice, but, I wager all internal record keeping and communications with the provincial department of health have to be in Francais seulement. I presume a large portion of the hospital staff therefore are bilingual francophone. Contrast that the the Vitalite Health System in NB. The Dumont Hospital here in Moncton operates 95% in French, and all record keeping is in French. I know. As a practicing physician at The Moncton Hospital, I daily review reports from over there and they are only in French. The Dumont is far more French I wager than the McGill hospital network is English.

As for English universities in Quebec, Legeault has just clubbed them over the head with a 2x4. They still exist, but the writing is on the wall. The expectation is that 70% of graduates will now have to be functionally bilingual. A lot of anglophones go the Montreal to study at McGill because it is a world class institution, not necessarily to learn French. I hear with the new rules that enrollment at McGill, Concordia and Bishops is down by at least 20%. This removes a lot of funding from these institutions, which will in turn affect how these institutions can recruit quality faculty and offer world class programs. Just how much longer will McGill be a world class university. I imagine it's rankings will drop like a stone. Again, is McGill expected to have internal record keeping in French? How does it communicate with the provincial government? Here in NB, the Universite de Moncton is absolutely 100% French. All record keeping and communications are in French. Up until a few years ago, all signage on the campus was 100% French. This has since changed, and only for the parking lots, because an unwary anglophone was successfully able to fight his parking ticket claiming he couldn't understand the "no parking" sign. The parking signs on campus now offer English as well, but, it is italicized and multiple point sizes smaller than the French parts of the sign.

You are exaggerating how generous the Quebec provincial government of Francois Legealt is to the anglophone minority.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"Multiple" anglophone hospitals makes it sound like the province is festooned with them. I wager there is only a small handful, and only in Montreal. Also, just how anglophone are these hospitals? Certainly these are facilities where anglophones can receive service in their language of choice, but, I wager all internal record keeping and communications with the provincial department of health have to be in Francais seulement. I presume a large portion of the hospital staff therefore are bilingual francophone. Contrast that the the Vitalite Health System in NB. The Dumont Hospital here in Moncton operates 95% in French, and all record keeping is in French. I know. As a practicing physician at The Moncton Hospital, I daily review reports from over there and they are only in French. The Dumont is far more French I wager than the McGill hospital network is English.

As for English universities in Quebec, Legeault has just clubbed them over the head with a 2x4. They still exist, but the writing is on the wall. The expectation is that 70% of graduates will now have to be functionally bilingual. A lot of anglophones go the Montreal to study at McGill because it is a world class institution, not necessarily to learn French. I hear with the new rules that enrollment at McGill, Concordia and Bishops is down by at least 20%. This removes a lot of funding from these institutions, which will in turn affect how these institutions can recruit quality faculty and offer world class programs. Just how much longer will McGill be a world class university. I imagine it's rankings will drop like a stone. Again, is McGill expected to have internal record keeping in French? How does it communicate with the provincial government? Here in NB, the Universite de Moncton is absolutely 100% French. All record keeping and communications are in French. Up until a few years ago, all signage on the campus was 100% French. This has since changed, and only for the parking lots, because an unwary anglophone was successfully able to fight his parking ticket claiming he couldn't understand the "no parking" sign. The parking signs on campus now offer English as well, but, it is italicized and multiple point sizes smaller than the French parts of the sign.

You are exaggerating how generous the Quebec provincial government of Francois Legealt is to the anglophone minority.

Lots of bilingual anglophone staff working at the anglo-hospitals, I assure you.

It's natural that most/all of the anglo hospitals are located in and around Montreal, since almost all of the anglophone population resides there.

Vis-à-vis McGill - its acceptance rate is rather low. A 20% drop in applications won't really affect its enrolement. I firmly disagree with what the government is doing, but let's not over dramatize this situation. McGill will be just fine and Bishops was excluded from the tuition hikes (maybe brush up on the news, yeah?). Furthermore, the expectation is that 80% of out-of-province students will have to attain French level 5, which is far, far, far from functionally bilingual. That level of French language proficiency would allow you to carry out a basic conversation in French, similar to ordering a meal at a restaurant with some level of comfort. A travesty! Poor Canadians. Lastly, McGill and particularly Concordia (I can't really speak for Bishops) draw most of their student base from... dare I say it?... Quebec. Those students are exempt.

Legault has not been particularly kind to the community, but it will take more than 2 terms to dismantle the long standing institutions that exist. Our community is considerably more robust than given credit for in the ROC.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Lots of bilingual anglophone staff working at the anglo-hospitals, I assure you.

It's natural that most/all of the anglo hospitals are located in and around Montreal, since almost all of the anglophone population resides there.

Vis-à-vis McGill - its acceptance rate is rather low. A 20% drop in applications won't really affect its enrolement. I firmly disagree with what the government is doing, but let's not over dramatize this situation. McGill will be just fine and Bishops was excluded from the tuition hikes (maybe brush up on the news, yeah?). Furthermore, the expectation is that 80% of out-of-province students will have to attain French level 5, which is far, far, far from functionally bilingual. That level of French language proficiency would allow you to carry out a basic conversation in French, similar to ordering a meal at a restaurant with some level of comfort. A travesty! Poor Canadians. Lastly, McGill and particularly Concordia (I can't really speak for Bishops) draw most of their student base from... dare I say it?... Quebec. Those students are exempt.

Legault has not been particularly kind to the community, but it will take more than 2 terms to dismantle the long standing institutions that exist. Our community is considerably more robust than given credit for in the ROC.

Sensible post. Even if Legault is not being nice, there is a huge legacy with English institutions and services that is not going to disappear overnight. If ever. And more broadly, the idea that "anglophones in Quebec get spoken to in English, point final" while not entirely comprehensive and unchallenged of course, still has a lot of legs among institutions, private businesses and even individual francophones as well.

This does not exist to any comparable degree outside Quebec for francophones. Not even dare I say in bilingual New Brunswick outside of 100% francophone areas, for example in a more mixed area like Moncton where if a francophone goes to Home Depot he's probably going to be served in English.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"Multiple" anglophone hospitals makes it sound like the province is festooned with them. I wager there is only a small handful, and only in Montreal. Also, just how anglophone are these hospitals? Certainly these are facilities where anglophones can receive service in their language of choice, but, I wager all internal record keeping and communications with the provincial department of health have to be in Francais seulement. I presume a large portion of the hospital staff therefore are bilingual francophone. Contrast that the the Vitalite Health System in NB. The Dumont Hospital here in Moncton operates 95% in French, and all record keeping is in French. I know. As a practicing physician at The Moncton Hospital, I daily review reports from over there and they are only in French. The Dumont is far more French I wager than the McGill hospital network is English.

As for English universities in Quebec, Legeault has just clubbed them over the head with a 2x4. They still exist, but the writing is on the wall. The expectation is that 70% of graduates will now have to be functionally bilingual. A lot of anglophones go the Montreal to study at McGill because it is a world class institution, not necessarily to learn French. I hear with the new rules that enrollment at McGill, Concordia and Bishops is down by at least 20%. This removes a lot of funding from these institutions, which will in turn affect how these institutions can recruit quality faculty and offer world class programs. Just how much longer will McGill be a world class university. I imagine it's rankings will drop like a stone. Again, is McGill expected to have internal record keeping in French? How does it communicate with the provincial government? Here in NB, the Universite de Moncton is absolutely 100% French. All record keeping and communications are in French. Up until a few years ago, all signage on the campus was 100% French. This has since changed, and only for the parking lots, because an unwary anglophone was successfully able to fight his parking ticket claiming he couldn't understand the "no parking" sign. The parking signs on campus now offer English as well, but, it is italicized and multiple point sizes smaller than the French parts of the sign.

You are exaggerating how generous the Quebec provincial government of Francois Legealt is to the anglophone minority.

Compared to what a province like Ontario has for francophones, one could easily conclude the Quebec is indeed "festooned" with anglophone institutions like hospitals, universities, etc.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

English Quebeckers have more access to services in English than Acadians. This is because well they speak English. You can get some kind of service in English in any part of Quebec. A St. John business is very likely not to have someone who can serve you in French.

Exactly. An English Quebecker will have access to a lot more stuff than a Francophone Acadian. They can enter their local big city and order Tim's or McD's in their language, etc. They have a lot less of a glass ceiling too: they can become CEO of Air Canada. They can become PM. They can become GG. Etc.

It's a lot easier to be an unilingual Anglo in Montreal than is it to be an unilingual Francophone anywhere in the RoC.

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

"Multiple" anglophone hospitals makes it sound like the province is festooned with them. I wager there is only a small handful, and only in Montreal. Also, just how anglophone are these hospitals? Certainly these are facilities where anglophones can receive service in their language of choice, but, I wager all internal record keeping and communications with the provincial department of health have to be in Francais seulement. I presume a large portion of the hospital staff therefore are bilingual francophone. Contrast that the the Vitalite Health System in NB. The Dumont Hospital here in Moncton operates 95% in French, and all record keeping is in French. I know. As a practicing physician at The Moncton Hospital, I daily review reports from over there and they are only in French. The Dumont is far more French I wager than the McGill hospital network is English.

The "handful" of English hospitals in Québec is definitely bigger that the plethora of French hospitals in the other provinces (combined!).

As for communication, I use to work in the Direction régionale de santé publique de Montréal (public health) and we received lab results from English hospitals generally in English. Of course, when we received such documents from outside Québec, they were in English, because French is a foreign language there, but we received documents from Québec in English too, and no, no one got in prison because of that.

How many documents in French are received by public health departments in other provinces from local hospitals?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Quebec does not have to follow the Ontario model with designated service regions and shiny new EAST-EST on highway signs in order for the minority to have a greater ability to be served and indeed live in its own language.

Quebec has multiple anglophone hospitals and also bilingual hospitals. Ontario has one: Montfort. Quebec has several anglophone universities and Ontario has none (effectively).

Ontario even has issues with providing bilingual 911 operators in 70% francophone regions like Prescott-Russell, and has had francophone women see sexual assault charges dropped against their rapist because for some reason the court couldn't find an interpreter who spoke French. In Northern Ontario!

Francophone parents in Ontario have been told by social workers that they can't speak to their kids in French because the unilingual anglophone social worker can't understand what is being said, and they supposedly don't have anyone who can.

A good summary is that the situation are mirrors of each other:

In Quebec, you have French-only signs but when you get in you'll get served in English.

In Ontario, the signs are bilingual but in practice you'll be served in English only.

You'd have to be a real fool to fall for the illusion that the latter is a functionally more bilingual society

[ToxiK]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

As for English universities in Quebec, Legeault has just clubbed them over the head with a 2x4. They still exist, but the writing is on the wall. The expectation is that 70% of graduates will now have to be functionally bilingual. A lot of anglophones go the Montreal to study at McGill because it is a world class institution, not necessarily to learn French.

I don't see why Québec should be subsidizing students that have no intentions to stay in Québec after their diplomas. If they want to study in a world class University like McGill, they can pay the full charge, which isn't that much compared to other universities in North America (add that to the fact that Montréal is a less expansive city that most others on the continent).

We don't need to be the Dollarama of higher education to the benefit of other provinces.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

A lot of anglophones go the Montreal to study at McGill because it is a world class institution, not necessarily to learn French. I hear with the new rules that enrollment at McGill, Concordia and Bishops is down by at least 20%. This removes a lot of funding from these institutions, which will in turn affect how these institutions can recruit quality faculty and offer world class programs. Just how much longer will McGill be a world class university. I imagine it's rankings will drop like a stone.

ToxiK is 100% correct here: if McGill is such a world class institution, then it should have no problem commanding world-class tuition

Conversely, if it drops like a stone, then it's obviously because it was never world-class in the first place.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Compared to what a province like Ontario has for francophones, one could easily conclude the Quebec is indeed "festooned" with anglophone institutions like hospitals, universities, etc.

You seem to have "forgotten" that all Quebec official documents such as driver's licenses, health cards, etc. are French only. Plus, there are no official English names for government departments, etc. Unlike in NB, ON and MB, where all government departments/ministries, commissions, crowns have an official English and French name.

Heck, even Newfoundland with a French mother tongue population of ~0.5% has bilingual driver's licenses.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

The "handful" of English hospitals in Québec is definitely bigger that the plethora of French hospitals in the other provinces (combined!).

As for communication, I use to work in the Direction régionale de santé publique de Montréal (public health) and we received lab results from English hospitals generally in English. Of course, when we received such documents from outside Québec, they were in English, because French is a foreign language there, but we received documents from Québec in English too, and no, no one got in prison because of that.

How many documents in French are received by public health departments in other provinces from local hospitals?

There are 11 hospitals in NB which are under the jurisdiction of the Reseau de Sante Vitalite (Franco health board).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

You seem to have "forgotten" that all Quebec official documents such as driver's licenses, health cards, etc. are French only. Plus, there are no official English names for government departments, etc. Unlike in NB, ON and MB, where all government departments/ministries, commissions, crowns have an official English and French name.

Heck, even Newfoundland with a French mother tongue population of ~0.5% has bilingual driver's licenses.

You seem to be the perfect example of the type of fool I was describing three posts above yours!

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

I don't see why Québec should be subsidizing students that have no intentions to stay in Québec after their diplomas. If they want to study in a world class University like McGill, they can pay the full charge, which isn't that much compared to other universities in North America (add that to the fact that Montréal is a less expansive city that most others on the continent).

We don't need to be the Dollarama of higher education to the benefit of other provinces.

Then other provinces should do the same. There's no reason why a Quebec student from Rimouski should pay the same tuition as a NB student from Edmundston to attend U de Moncton.

[vanatox]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

You seem to have "forgotten" that all Quebec official documents such as driver's licenses, health cards, etc. are French only. Plus, there are no official English names for government departments, etc. Unlike in NB, ON and MB, where all government departments/ministries, commissions, crowns have an official English and French name.

Heck, even Newfoundland with a French mother tongue population of ~0.5% has bilingual driver's licenses.

But it's all fake. Everybody here is telling you that the possibily to get service in French is abysmal and and none of those departments are bilingual. Adding a French title to look good is not considered adequate bilingualism.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by lio45

You seem to be the perfect example of the type of fool I was describing three posts above yours!

Can't refute the argument, so resort to the personal attacks. So immature.