Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Ottawacurious

There will be a discussion organized by 'parkways for people' about the future of Lansdowne (phase II). Sean Menard is promoting the event. They are more-or-less saying since the city hasn't done the consultations yet, they will kick-start it.

https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/the-future-o...to-share-your-views-tickets-505725387247

Bring popcorn. Might be entertaining.

Maybe now someone will think about transit to and from the site, but probably not.

[JHikka]

https://twitter.com/TSN1200

Expect to hear soon about an Ottawa bid for the 2025 (Dec ‘24) World Juniors. OSEG CEO Mark Goudie told @TSN1200 this week he expects to have a conversation soon with the Sens about partnering on a bid. “This is going to be our time to take a shot at hosting” … 1/

…2/. Ottawa last hosted a World Jr. in 2009. Despite the fact Ottawa could have new NHL and Jr hockey rinks before the end of the decade Goudie says with both likely to have less capacity it makes more sense to bid for the event in 18 months

This caught my attention this AM, in particular the idea that Ottawa needs to host the U20s before the arenas are eventually replaced by smaller buildings. It reads to me like Goudie is saying they need the revenues from the event in larger buildings, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me when they could have slightly smaller buildings and simply supply/demand their way to equivalent revenues from tickets at higher prices. The U20s are more right-sized for smaller buildings, anyway, as has been the case for the past few tournaments now. If I were to guess i'd say OSEG are pretty desperate for those revenues today as opposed to waiting until the new buildings are open.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

https://twitter.com/TSN1200

Expect to hear soon about an Ottawa bid for the 2025 (Dec ‘24) World Juniors. OSEG CEO Mark Goudie told @TSN1200 this week he expects to have a conversation soon with the Sens about partnering on a bid. “This is going to be our time to take a shot at hosting” … 1/

…2/. Ottawa last hosted a World Jr. in 2009. Despite the fact Ottawa could have new NHL and Jr hockey rinks before the end of the decade Goudie says with both likely to have less capacity it makes more sense to bid for the event in 18 months

This caught my attention this AM, in particular the idea that Ottawa needs to host the U20s before the arenas are eventually replaced by smaller buildings. It reads to me like Goudie is saying they need the revenues from the event in larger buildings, which doesn't make a ton of sense to me when they could have slightly smaller buildings and simply supply/demand their way to equivalent revenues from tickets at higher prices. The U20s are more right-sized for smaller buildings, anyway, as has been the case for the past few tournaments now. If I were to guess i'd say OSEG are pretty desperate for those revenues today as opposed to waiting until the new buildings are open.

Hard to say. If Lansdowne 2.0 goes through, OSEG would lose about 4500 seats per game, so that’s hard to make up in ticket prices. The new 5000 seat arena would definitely be on the small side for a World Juniors in Canada, so there is likely a legitimate reason to bid before that.

I’m just hoping for a world juniors where the transit system is running.

[phil235]

Was at a movie at Lansdowne yesterday ("Air", which is really quite good incidentally), and there was water absolutely pouring down the stairwell that leads up into the theatre building. The water seemed to be coming through gaps in the concrete slabs. I'm no engineer, but that seems concerning in a relatively new building.

[VANRIDERFAN]

Originally Posted by ponyboycurtis

I'm really going to miss when they tear down these walkups on the north side. Spacing and practicality aside these things kick the ass out of the steps on the south. Perhaps most importantly I have so many childhood memories of these walkups with the Roughriders.

Ahem, that would be Rough Riders.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by VANRIDERFAN

Ahem, that would be Rough Riders.

Maybe they ARE referring to the RoughRiders, they come to Lansdowne once a year at least I think?

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by phil235

Hard to say. If Lansdowne 2.0 goes through, OSEG would lose about 4500 seats per game, so that’s hard to make up in ticket prices. The new 5000 seat arena would definitely be on the small side for a World Juniors in Canada, so there is likely a legitimate reason to bid before that.

I’m just hoping for a world juniors where the transit system is running.

5000 is plenty for the second arena no? The Canada group and playoffs would all be in the NHL arena which would be an overall increase in capacity from most places that host.

The question is if the Sens move downtown will anyone pay $20 to go to Junior hockey games or I guess the idea is Sens tickets won't be $15-20 anymore.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

5000 is plenty for the second arena no? The Canada group and playoffs would all be in the NHL arena which would be an overall increase in capacity from most places that host.

The question is if the Sens move downtown will anyone pay $20 to go to Junior hockey games or I guess the idea is Sens tickets won't be $15-20 anymore.

Based on venues of the past 10 years, I think 5k is plenty. This year, it was split between Moncton (8.8k) and Halifax (10.6k). In 2020, venues in the Czech Republic were 10k and 5.2k. In 2018, they had three venues in the Buffalo NY area, 71k, 19k and 1.8k.

A 16-18k NHL venue and 5k OHL would be plenty. Could throw a bone to Gatineau and give the 4.5k Slush Puppie a couple games.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Based on venues of the past 10 years, I think 5k is plenty. This year, it was split between Moncton (8.8k) and Halifax (10.6k). In 2020, venues in the Czech Republic were 10k and 5.2k. In 2018, they had three venues in the Buffalo NY area, 71k, 19k and 1.8k.

A 16-18k NHL venue and 5k OHL would be plenty. Could throw a bone to Gatineau and give the 4.5k Slush Puppie a couple games.

5k is probably fine, but that tournament is Hockey Canada’s big money maker and they have placed a lot of weight on the financials in recent years, so it might put Ottawa at a bit of a disadvantage. If you look at the hosts in Canada prior to Halifax, it was Montreal/Toronto and Edmonton/Calgary, which meant a lot more seats. Saskatoon-Regina in 2010 would have had a (slightly) smaller seating capacity, but the one before in Vancouver-Victoria would have been bigger by a lot. The smaller arena definitely wouldn’t disqualify us, but it might hurt our chances a bit.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Was at a movie at Lansdowne yesterday ("Air", which is really quite good incidentally), and there was water absolutely pouring down the stairwell that leads up into the theatre building. The water seemed to be coming through gaps in the concrete slabs. I'm no engineer, but that seems concerning in a relatively new building.

I heard Whole Foods was having leaks as well.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

5k is probably fine, but that tournament is Hockey Canada’s big money maker and they have placed a lot of weight on the financials in recent years, so it might put Ottawa at a bit of a disadvantage. If you look at the hosts in Canada prior to Halifax, it was Montreal/Toronto and Edmonton/Calgary, which meant a lot more seats. Saskatoon-Regina in 2010 would have had a (slightly) smaller seating capacity, but the one before in Vancouver-Victoria would have been bigger by a lot. The smaller arena definitely wouldn’t disqualify us, but it might hurt our chances a bit.

Wouldn’t the secondary arena have minor games that wouldn’t have close to 5k attendance?

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Wouldn’t the secondary arena have minor games that wouldn’t have close to 5k attendance?

It would have the second pool, but the tickets are sold as part of the package. In tournaments held in Canada they have definitely drawn well north of 5k.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by phil235

5k is probably fine, but that tournament is Hockey Canada’s big money maker and they have placed a lot of weight on the financials in recent years, so it might put Ottawa at a bit of a disadvantage. If you look at the hosts in Canada prior to Halifax, it was Montreal/Toronto and Edmonton/Calgary, which meant a lot more seats. Saskatoon-Regina in 2010 would have had a (slightly) smaller seating capacity, but the one before in Vancouver-Victoria would have been bigger by a lot. The smaller arena definitely wouldn’t disqualify us, but it might hurt our chances a bit.

The most recent event (Halifax/Moncton) is the most relevant, though. 10K/8K isn't that far off from 16K/5K or whatever Ottawa ends up with.

I think we can all agree that the two Montreal/Toronto tournaments were mostly failures on the ticket selling front. Neither hit the goals presumably set by HC and both were disappointments on that front. Those two tournaments were Hockey Canada getting cocky and shooting for the moon after selling out NHL arenas in other markets, thinking they could get away with it for all games. They didn't, and couldn't, and so rightly downsized for Halifax/Moncton. The U20s should ideally, IMO, have one NHL arena and one CHL arena, which Ottawa would be able to provide regardless of setup. (Kanata or LeBreton, Lansdowne 1.0, Lansdowne 2.0, or Gatineau).

My initial question was why Goudie thinks they need to host before they downsize both arenas. It shouldn't make any difference, really, as long as they're able to scale ticket prices to the future smaller buildings, and my reading of the quote was that Goudie thinks that wouldn't be as effective, and that games should be held in Kanata and Lansdowne 1.0 immediately for some reason rather than waiting for LeBreton and Lansdowne 2.0. Perhaps he knows something we don't.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The most recent event (Halifax/Moncton) is the most relevant, though. 10K/8K isn't that far off from 16K/5K or whatever Ottawa ends up with.

I think we can all agree that the two Montreal/Toronto tournaments were mostly failures on the ticket selling front. Neither hit the goals presumably set by HC and both were disappointments on that front. Those two tournaments were Hockey Canada getting cocky and shooting for the moon after selling out NHL arenas in other markets, thinking they could get away with it for all games. They didn't, and couldn't, and so rightly downsized for Halifax/Moncton. The U20s should ideally, IMO, have one NHL arena and one CHL arena, which Ottawa would be able to provide regardless of setup. (Kanata or LeBreton, Lansdowne 1.0, Lansdowne 2.0, or Gatineau).

My initial question was why Goudie thinks they need to host before they downsize both arenas. It shouldn't make any difference, really, as long as they're able to scale ticket prices to the future smaller buildings, and my reading of the quote was that Goudie thinks that wouldn't be as effective, and that games should be held in Kanata and Lansdowne 1.0 immediately for some reason rather than waiting for LeBreton and Lansdowne 2.0. Perhaps he knows something we don't.

Yeah, I generally agree. The Montreal/Toronto issue was primarily a ticket price problem. I went in Toronto and it was insane what they were charging.

I think the reason for Goudie’s quote is probably the obvious - they want to bid soon and get that revenue stream and they think they can make more with the bigger venues, given the evident limits on what people are willing to pay for tickets.

[J.OT13]

Very strange how OSEG insists that the Civic Centre can no longer host major international events while we're hosting the World Males Curling Championship and trying to bid on the World Juniors. Truly an arena past its prime. Unsalvageable!!

[OTownandDown]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Very strange how OSEG insists that the Civic Centre can no longer host major international events while we're hosting the World Males Curling Championship and trying to bid on the World Juniors. Truly an arena past its prime. Unsalvageable!!

The politics are real. OSEG stands to make a ton of money immediately from selling all those condos, which will be in part pocketed for services rendered (either directly, or indirectly at the contractor level). The City will get a new arena and a look-at-me moment, and citizens 'get' a new arena. Everyone just has to keep on-message until it happens.

Having said that, frenzied staff members yelling at lines of 100 people to walk to the unheated football stand side of the arena to use the bathroom isn't a *great* look, but could probably be fixed with a $100-200M cash influx. Not palatable for politics, and not financially viable for rich old guys playing sports owner in a relatively small market and a City Hall staff devoid of planning/programming/event hosting.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

It would have the second pool, but the tickets are sold as part of the package. In tournaments held in Canada they have definitely drawn well north of 5k.

If we don’t count Edmonton which was an attendance flop, the Halifax/Moncton and Vancouver/Victoria rarely got over 5000 for group B games (despite over 8k capacity in both cases) and never over 6000. I think an arena in the 5-6 k range (size of whatever they call the Hershey Centre now) would be good for WJs.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by OTownandDown

The politics are real. OSEG stands to make a ton of money immediately from selling all those condos, which will be in part pocketed for services rendered (either directly, or indirectly at the contractor level). The City will get a new arena and a look-at-me moment, and citizens 'get' a new arena. Everyone just has to keep on-message until it happens.

Having said that, frenzied staff members yelling at lines of 100 people to walk to the unheated football stand side of the arena to use the bathroom isn't a *great* look, but could probably be fixed with a $100-200M cash influx. Not palatable for politics, and not financially viable for rich old guys playing sports owner in a relatively small market and a City Hall staff devoid of planning/programming/event hosting.

But w'ere not "getting" a new arena and half stadium, we'll be spending $300 to $400 million relocating the arena to a smaller venue and rebuilding a half stadium with no roof or expansion capacity (think Grey Cup, NHL Classic) so that our developer partners can build a bunch of condos.

There might be some merit, but I'm unconvinced at this point. Seems the City is willing to give way too much without thinking of future considerations.

Going from a 10k arena to a 5k seens like a major downgrade. It's a whole other market.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

If we don’t count Edmonton which was an attendance flop, the Halifax/Moncton and Vancouver/Victoria rarely got over 5000 for group B games (despite over 8k capacity in both cases) and never over 6000.

Except they did. Victoria had six games with over 6000 attendance, and Moncton had games of 7000 and 8000+. The last time the tournament was in Ottawa, every pool B game was north of 9000 attendance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Junior_Ice_Hockey_Championships
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_World_Junior_Ice_Hockey_Championships

I actually prefer the smaller arenas for juniors, but from a financial standpoint there is definitely an advantage to having more seats to sell.

[LeadingEdgeBoomer]

Originally Posted by phil235

Except they did. Victoria had six games with over 6000 attendance, and Moncton had games of 7000 and 8000+. The last time the tournament was in Ottawa, every pool B game was north of 9000 attendance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_World_Junior_Ice_Hockey_Championships
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_World_Junior_Ice_Hockey_Championships

I actually prefer the smaller arenas for juniors, but from a financial standpoint there is definitely an advantage to having more seats to sell.

Yes. I think a better solution is for OSEG to build its condos and a new half stadium at Lansdowne and a 7000-8000 seat junior arena at another site close to a LRT station like Hurdman, or somewhere else on the LRT line.