Winnipeg Jets

[esquire]

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by P&M40BELOW

The absolute best thing that has happened ( in 2 generations) economically and confidence wise to this city was a downtown arena and then the return of the Jets. If Winnipeg tripled in size we would still be a small market. Having this team is an absolute luxury that we can’t afford to take for granted. The smartest thing Winnipeg could do is in a dozen years from now fast track an new $1 billion dollar arena at the forks Don’t screw it up; there won’t be a repeat return option.

I don't know. I noticed an increased swagger in Winnipeggers' walk when a new IKEA was announced for the city back in 2008.

On a more serious note, I am almost a 100% certain that the location, financing and construction of the new arena will not be "fast-tracked" as you put it. As we have seen here (ie IGF Field) and elsewhere (Edmonton, Calgary, potentially Ottawa, potentially Halifax with new stadium), building a heavily subsidized pro sports facility is a long drawn-out process. It certainly wouldn't be wise to just throw public money at True North. Every dollar allocated should be scrutinized. Winnipeg isn't Atlanta.

And a billion dollars?!? Where on earth are you getting that number from!? I realize inflation will play a role, but Winnipeg will not be building a grandiose arena like the $800+ million Little Caesars Palace with a jacket of businesses surrounding the exterior. Nor will it be as grand or large as the Rogers Place ($600 million, over 1 million square feet including the Winter Garden). Calgary will be building an arena with a similar capacity as Rogers Place (18,500) for $550 million, 7 years after its completion.

Winnipeg's hypothetical new arena will not need the number of seats or square footage of the above arenas. 550,000 - 600,000 square feet (about 100,000 - 150,000 more square footage than the current arena with 16,500 permanent seats and 500 or so standing room seats. A smaller arena should keep expenses under control to a degree.

Originally Posted by esquire

You'll know the push for a new rink is really on once TN's confederates in the media (aka sportswriters) start doing hatchet jobs on the existing building in an effort to persuade the public that Bell MTS Place is hopelessly inadequate and is in need of replacement. That seems to be part of the template of how this gets done.

That's true. Also criticizing city officials for failing to play ball with pro sports owner and touting the endless economic benefits of a pro team for a city.

Another indication that TNSE will push for a new arena will be when the commissioner (Bettman's heir in all likelihood) states that the current facility no longer meets the needs of the current NHL. Part of Bettman's job is to take hear for the owners.

Originally Posted by CoryB

I honestly think we are very close to the right time to pitch a new NHL arena. Everyone knows MTS Centre was a lightly upgraded AHL arena that barely meet the NHL standards and is one of the smallest rinks in the league. Add in the "changes" that will be needed coming out of the pandemic and letting fans attend events again and there is the perfect storm to start pitching a new facility.

I doubt we will see a pitch for an arena anytime soon. Likely a decade or more. Spacing in concourses will be an issue in all the arenas with regards to COVID, not just BellMTS Centre. You cannot adequately space people 6 feet apart between periods/before games even in a concourse 50-100% larger than our arena. By the 2022-23 season, most, if not all, spacing concerns related to COVID will be a thing of the past.

Originally Posted by esquire

It will be interesting to see how this is handled over the next few years. On some level it feels like the regular, non-premium seating capacity is about right... it doesn't feel as though the Jets have outgrown it in any meaningful way. Even though the team has been pretty good these past few seasons, demand has softened to the point where it is really no trouble at all to get tickets anymore, as compared to 2012 when getting any kind of ticket basically meant asking someone for a favour if you weren't a season ticket holder. There were even empty seats at a few games last season. If you bumped up "normal" seating capacity from whatever it is now, 13,000 or so, to 16,000, I suspect there would be a lot more empty seats unless the Jets were on a real tear.

The big question is whether there is a need for more premium seating, lounges and all of that. If they doubled the number of skyboxes and added some big club seating areas would they actually sell? I'm sure TNSE knows the answer to that. Personally I'd doubt it, though.

The economy grew so much between the 60s and 90s that I can understand why so many of the old, basic arenas around the league were junked in favour of ones that catered to a more well heeled clientele. But have things changed that much since 2004? Maybe a little, but I'm not sure if it has reached the point where it would justify the cost of a new building. At least not if TNSE has to pay for it

I agree. Normal seating capacity is more than adequate.

I was just listening to Hustler on 1290 and he was discussing how NHL ticket price increases have far exceeded the rate of inflation for a considerable period of time. There would come a time where the public would refuse or be financially unable to pay these ever increasing rates. He said it appeared that point was reached shortly after the Jets run in the playoffs in 2018. That sounds about right.

This seems to be happening around the league and even in Canada. Oilers ticket prices were experiencing some significant bumps even prior to the move to the new arena and with all those premium seating options there they saw another significant bump. Last year saw several games with 1000 - 2000 empty seats. This in one of the best hockey markets on the planet with two of the best players in the world. Having $150 upper deck seats certainly doesn't help.

As for premium seating options at this hypothetical new arena, I think the Jets would have fewer suites than the current arena given I hear some companies actually split suites at this time. For reference, Edmonton actually reduced the number of suites when they moved to Rogers Place.

Doubling the number of club seats (2,000 instead of 1,000) and doubling the number of loges would be reasonable. Increasing the lower bowl from 8,000 to 9,000 seats which seems to be the league norm would also be ideal. I'm sure Chipman has his feelers out there and surveys of business clientele to determine the demands for the premium seating options in the future.

Originally Posted by JHikka

It's an awful idea if i'm being honest with you. Take all of the NHL teams with awful attendance generation and what do they have in common?


I often say that Quebec City would be like Winnipeg but worse for trades and free agents because everyone speaks a language that isn't English. It's bad enough for foreign players playing in the Quebec League - professionals simply would not tolerate it. Many would probably enjoy the idea of a QC team built with strictly francophones but they would be perennial losers.

Yes, I would give Winnipeg a slight advantage over Quebec City in terms of player retention and free agent signings given it is primarily a francophone-speaking populace. Winnipeg also has more corporate strength. Quebec City definitely has that "coolness factor" that Winnipeg can't touch with Old Quebec which has a distinct European vibe to it. That might appeal to a few players, although probably not many given we are talking about 20 year old millionaires.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by esquire

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

It seems like the most logical spot at this time. Other choices would be Point Douglas although there are some limitations with that site, and the Research Council of Canada if it closes or is closed?(thought somebody here said it no longer operating at full capacity?).

If nothing else is built at the old Stadium site near Polo Park, that might be a darkhorse candidate as well. Only a few miles from downtown and reasonably centrally located. So far all that has been constructed there are the old target building which has been converted to 24-7 call centre, Winners and Homesense, and the PF Changs. I would think the site will be filled with more businesses in the future so that's likely a non-starter.

[bomberjet]

Point Douglas didn't want a stadium. Not sure an arena is a good fit there.

Didn't the NRC get shutdown by Harper and they're just maintaining the buildings?

Shaw Park site actually seems like a good fit.

[roccerfeller]

Originally Posted by esquire

The NHL is just the sizzle that helped to sell the True North Square steak. It's not like one requires the other to succeed.

Personally I think the likeliest spot for a new arena will be Shaw Park. In about 20-25 years that ballpark will be getting pretty old and in need of costly upgrades, and I doubt there will be an occupant to justify those kinds of expenses. So we'll see the city decide to level the ballpark and put up a new showpiece of an arena.

I could see that. Will fit nicely in post card shots!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

I could see that. Will fit nicely in post card shots!

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Sort of a marquee spot convenient to downtown without necessarily being right in the middle of downtown. And one that lends itself to beautiful skyline views!

To bomberjet's point, during the Save the Jets campaign of 1995, that's where the local interests who wanted to keep the team in town were looking to build a new arena. They cleared the land for a new building... when that fell through, it became the home of the baseball park instead.

[buzzg]

I don't think Shaw Park would work at all, the land is barely bigger than the current arena, and a new one would certainly be bigger – not just seating, but they will need much bigger concourses and common areas, that's the biggest issue now. Plus, access is terrible you only have a bigger street on one side. I don't think turning Waterfront into a major thoroughfare is a good plan, and I think the traffic from locating the stadium there would be awful for the Exchange and The Forks. I only see Shaw Park working if the rail line gets relocated...

The NRC land is certainly ripe for redevelopment, the building is like 10% occupied. It's a huge waste of space. I just don't think it's enough space and is too close to SFH and the school. While the buildings need a cosmetic upgrade, they're quite beautiful inside though so they could be repurposed.

IMO the two best options for the next arena would either be:

1) Directly north of (and integrated into) Portage Place (E-W), replacing the Promenade apartments and doing a cool integration with the Free Press building like Ford Field did in Detroit.

2) Across from the convention centre oriented east-west along the south side of York between Carlton and Donald. Would take up the current WCB parking lot, and tear down the Best Western and likely 120 Donald.

Both these options have great access and connections to the area. Connected to skywalk, lots of amenities and all the build up (hotels, restaurants, etc) tied to the current arena would still be in the same vicinity. Could also spur a needed future rethink of Broadway.

[esquire]

I did a map overlay of Rogers Place on Shaw Park, and yeah, it's tight... Rogers Place would basically fill in the entire space between the tracks, Waterfront and William Stephenson Way. But I wouldn't necessarily say it's too small... there would just have to be some road adjustments.

[pacman]

Would be interesting for someone smarter than me to see if there was any way of widening the rail line footprint in a way to accommodate "rapid transit" running right along side and attaching to a new arena at the Shaw Park location. I know people have been talking about rapid transit running through union station and having something of a hub around Westbrook and Portage. Would absolutely be big picture thinking to integrate those needs together not just for a future arena but imagine if the larger rapid transit network was focused there with an arena as an anchor. Any possible way that can happen without the default instant response that the railway wouldn't be interested so it will never happen? Is it physically possible?

[esquire]

To what buzzg was saying earlier, the CN line/Waterfront/William Stephenson triangle would pretty well have to be maxed out to build a large arena there. That said, I can't see why a BRT/LRT route running alongside the CN line couldn't work in terms of fit... if an arena were built there some day it would probably be a pretty good amenity when it comes to getting people to and from events.

The nice thing about an arena on that site is that any kind of spinoff development would likely go in the underdeveloped lands to the west along Westbrook. It would be nice to see that area finally get built up a little.

[bomberjet]

Originally Posted by pacman

Would be interesting for someone smarter than me to see if there was any way of widening the rail line footprint in a way to accommodate "rapid transit" running right along side and attaching to a new arena at the Shaw Park location. I know people have been talking about rapid transit running through union station and having something of a hub around Westbrook and Portage. Would absolutely be big picture thinking to integrate those needs together not just for a future arena but imagine if the larger rapid transit network was focused there with an arena as an anchor. Any possible way that can happen without the default instant response that the railway wouldn't be interested so it will never happen? Is it physically possible?

The transitway was supposed to parallel the track all the way from union station through St. B to Kildonan Place area. There's room. Apparently CN didnt want to play nice somewhere so the City abandoned that option all together.

If there was an arena there, maybe things would be different. I did a measure in google earth. MTS centre is about 12,500m2. Shaw park site is about 30,000m2. So quite a bit larger. Rogers Place is a palace, but the overall site is about 32,000 m2. Same as shaw park.

[esquire]

^ Yeah, I used Rogers Place as the basis for comparison since it represents the high water mark for what we would likely build down the road... I can't imagine that Winnipeg's new arena would be any bigger than that although who knows where arena design trends will be in 20 years.

I can't seem to post images on imgur anymore so I can't share my highly elaborate map overlay. I wish this forum could host pictures...

[pacman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The transitway was supposed to parallel the track all the way from union station through St. B to Kildonan Place area. There's room. Apparently CN didnt want to play nice somewhere so the City abandoned that option all together.

If there was an arena there, maybe things would be different. I did a measure in google earth. MTS centre is about 12,500m2. Shaw park site is about 30,000m2. So quite a bit larger. Rogers Place is a palace, but the overall site is about 32,000 m2. Same as shaw park.

There's no doubt that the shaw park site footprint is massive not only compared to MTS Centre, but also compared to virtually every other arena site in Canada and in most of North America with the exception of Rogers Place. Like you said, that's a palace and even so would still fit in the Shaw park site with a little rework of the roads. So even though people intuitively think the site is cramped, the reality is that it is more than big enough to put any arena we would dream to build here. So I think its safe to dismiss that argument out of hand.
Regarding the railway, unless there is a physical reason or regulatory situation that cannot be massaged why the rapid transit line couldn't be placed along it and integrate directly into a new arena, I think it could be a generational big boy project that would redefine the area. Beautiful tie-in to the Forks/railside development, anchor rapid transit and actually give people reasons to use it 200-250 nights a year, tie it into the underground concourse at Portage and Main and therefore link it to all the new downtown residential developments as well as parking for the suburbanites. Honestly can't think of a downside aside from the cost of doing it the right way and not cutting corners. Tell me I'm wrong.

[bomberjet]

The city is scared of big boy projects.

Transit is still, yes still, working through there transit planning. But like I've mentioned before and you mentioned, the area east of P&M is ripe for real, large scale TOD development. It's a sea of parking lots. Could transform that area of downtown. We're talking pie in the sky things here about an arena. But leaving that out, there is huge potential for that area.

The Cities current plans have the transit way high line through union station terminating somewhere in that area near Pioneer and Westbrook. I don't know if they've actually gotten that far in determining what it would look like.

And even though the City is planning on going through Point Douglas with there pseudo rapid transit stuff. It doesn't mean at some point in the future another separate transit line could extend along the railway to east Winnipeg. Things change.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by bomberjet

The city is scared of big boy projects.

Transit is still, yes still, working through there transit planning. But like I've mentioned before and you mentioned, the area east of P&M is ripe for real, large scale TOD development. It's a sea of parking lots. Could transform that area of downtown. We're talking pie in the sky things here about an arena. But leaving that out, there is huge potential for that area.

The Cities current plans have the transit way high line through union station terminating somewhere in that area near Pioneer and Westbrook. I don't know if they've actually gotten that far in determining what it would look like.

And even though the City is planning on going through Point Douglas with there pseudo rapid transit stuff. It doesn't mean at some point in the future another separate transit line could extend along the railway to east Winnipeg. Things change.

I don't think the city is scared of big boy projects, they just lack the leadership. When Katz thought up and presented the ICE district, there were Debby Downers in Alberta downplaying it saying it was pie in the sky, unnecessary, other priorities, too ambitious for a city like Edmonton, but Katz pushed the right buttons, got enough decision makers on board, and pursued that district by putting his own money up (along with a shitload of public money) and doing it.

This big boy project done correctly will need public support but would only succeed with private people pushing it through in spite of Winnipeg's Debby Downers. Maybe I'm naive, but eventually if someone with deep pockets and enough influence backs something like this and manages to show the public the benefits that we're talking about it is not beyond Winnipeg's capabilities.

There is already a certain Baron who is the richest man in Canada involved with the Jets who is more than capable of continuing to be the behind the scenes pocketbook who can pull enough strings and have enough influence to get it done. In the end it doesn't matter if the City is scared of big boy projects as long as the leader isn't.

[Biff]

I hear what you are saying, but don't you think the SHED is pretty "big boy". Sure it is not one nice big package with a huge common area like in Edmonton, but don't you think the private money the Chipman's have already spent on bringing the area immediately adjacent to his hockey rink qualifies?

That is 7 new towers to downtown (Alt, Glasshouse, TNS 1 & 2, Sutton Place 1 & 2 and Wawanesa). The ICE District looks great with the towering Stantec and space ship arena but the SHED gave us 136 storey's of new towers. Pretty good for downtown I think.

[CoryB]

What people seem to be forget in new arena site speculation is the costs into those downtown developments will long be sunk costs in the past. Building a new arena near by to leverage those won't have the same return.

Everyone is also overlooking that Chipman is heavily invested in development near Portage Ave and the Perimeter and likely has a parcel of land set aside as a possible arena site.

One of the thing True North has done on phenomenal job on with MTS Centre is if you go to an event there there is a good chance you park in their lot, go for pre-game dinner/drinks at a place they own or in a building they own, and then the same post-game. True North makes a lot of money off the "value adds" to attending something at the current location.

If they say built a new arena at a different location downtown or replacing Shaw Park they are going to have a difficult time capturing those same value adds. If on the other hand they built in the middle of the Chipman controlled area on west Winnipeg odds are they could pull off a repeat. The add piece there is that part of town is somewhat underserviced for restaurants/lounges compared to similar areas. It also has higher end housing close by which would appeal to more established players and there is a "luxury apartment" building planned for almost next door to the Ice Plex which would likely appeal to younger NHL players and those in the AHL.

And well WestGate in Phoenix failed for a variety of reasons, the design of the site, other than the arena blocking the primary event venue (NFL stadium) it is a pretty well thought out pre/post event area. I cannot find the exact number of event days Bell MTS Place had in 2018 but it was fairly high, something like 2 out of 3 days they had something there. Sure Moose games and smaller events don't have the same impact but that type of induced demand could help prop up a WestGate style entertainment district.

[drew]

My hope is that they upgrade and renovate the current arena as necessary to get 100 years out of it. I think it occupies the sweet spot in both capacity and location in the City.

IMO, there is no reason this cannot happen.

Treat it like a wise man owns a car. Buy something modest, easy to maintain, and drive it till it's dead.

[pacman]

Originally Posted by Biff

I hear what you are saying, but don't you think the SHED is pretty "big boy". Sure it is not one nice big package with a huge common area like in Edmonton, but don't you think the private money the Chipman's have already spent on bringing the area immediately adjacent to his hockey rink qualifies?

That is 7 new towers to downtown (Alt, Glasshouse, TNS 1 & 2, Sutton Place 1 & 2 and Wawanesa). The ICE District looks great with the towering Stantec and space ship arena but the SHED gave us 136 storey's of new towers. Pretty good for downtown I think.

I don't disagree with you at all and that's why the default reaction of "these things won't happen in Winnipeg" is lazy. True North are more than capable of pulling something grandiose like this off when the time comes - that's the key. I'm not at all suggesting this happens near future, I'm just saying that when it comes time to have these discussions that's the type of legacy building development that could define a generation.

Look, we all know that True North and the Richardsons are tight or at minimum work well together as evidenced by True North Square. It is an easy stretch to see them "master plan" that area around Westbrook together with the Shaw park site as a super mega development.

Again, not saying this is imminent at all as the focus right now is the SHED. All I'm saying is that at some point the SHED will be in the rear view mirror and something needs to be on the horizon. I can see it, but I'm not sitting here waiting with bated breath, just hopeful for the future, maybe 10-15 years down the road.

To clarify Biff, I agree the SHED is "big boy", but what I'm thinking of at Shaw Park / Westbrook is bigger boy, next level.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by CoryB

What people seem to be forget in new arena site speculation is the costs into those downtown developments will long be sunk costs in the past. Building a new arena near by to leverage those won't have the same return.

Everyone is also overlooking that Chipman is heavily invested in development near Portage Ave and the Perimeter and likely has a parcel of land set aside as a possible arena site.

One of the thing True North has done on phenomenal job on with MTS Centre is if you go to an event there there is a good chance you park in their lot, go for pre-game dinner/drinks at a place they own or in a building they own, and then the same post-game. True North makes a lot of money off the "value adds" to attending something at the current location.

If they say built a new arena at a different location downtown or replacing Shaw Park they are going to have a difficult time capturing those same value adds. If on the other hand they built in the middle of the Chipman controlled area on west Winnipeg odds are they could pull off a repeat. The add piece there is that part of town is somewhat underserviced for restaurants/lounges compared to similar areas. It also has higher end housing close by which would appeal to more established players and there is a "luxury apartment" building planned for almost next door to the Ice Plex which would likely appeal to younger NHL players and those in the AHL.

And well WestGate in Phoenix failed for a variety of reasons, the design of the site, other than the arena blocking the primary event venue (NFL stadium) it is a pretty well thought out pre/post event area. I cannot find the exact number of event days Bell MTS Place had in 2018 but it was fairly high, something like 2 out of 3 days they had something there. Sure Moose games and smaller events don't have the same impact but that type of induced demand could help prop up a WestGate style entertainment district.

Chipman isn't building an arena without public money, and he's not getting public money to build one at the perimeter.