Halifax Stadium Discussion

[elly63]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Sam, I want to thank you for posting about this, knowing that you were going to be facing a barrage of comments that you will have to defend. It shows good character to put yourself out there and state your beliefs and reasoning on the subject, especially knowing they won't be the most popular views expressed.

Frankly, I was happy to see the support shown here, as generally those opposed provide the most vociferous and numerous opinions. It was also nice to see the support because a process like this takes a long time (8 years on average) and people are going to jump off the bandwagon. It's nice to know there is some support there when it is needed.

[j.graham]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

My question is simply this: If HRM is being expected to pay for the stadium but not have ownership or a share in potential profits, then why don't we just negotiate for a better deal? Or, just build the stadium and budget for the development/maintenance costs, and then have some kind of control over the situation?

I am generally pro-stadium, but I appreciate Councillor Austin's sentiment and actions here. The stadium location is okay, but the development group is expecting 95% of people to get there without private vehicles. So aside from the money issue (which I think is a huge issue), Halifax Transit will have to come up with a plan to get everyone to the game.

The location is basically unwalkable for most of the peninsula and Dartmouth, so bussing will be required. The current fleet is 312 buses, and the development group's proposal is to utilise 300 buses for main events. So normal bus service would have to be suspended during events.

Their plan has a lot of holes, so I can see why it makes sense to not waste taxpayer's money negotiating a better deal on a plan that doesn't seem like it will work just yet.

[ILoveHalifax]

I used to live on the Commons and saw a few concerts take place AND 40,000 people, came and went without any major disruption. Yes the streets had some traffic and were basically kept on standstill until the people were off the site and then traffic took another half hour to get back to normal. This really just added to the festivity of the whole event. Nobody is expecting to be home in 5 minutes.

[j.graham]

Originally Posted by ILoveHalifax

I used to live on the Commons and saw a few concerts take place AND 40,000 people, came and went without any major disruption. Yes the streets had some traffic and were basically kept on standstill until the people were off the site and then traffic took another half hour to get back to normal. This really just added to the festivity of the whole event. Nobody is expecting to be home in 5 minutes.

Right, but the current stadium proposal has about 400 parking spots. I am all for public transit, but we need a way to get people to and from the event. The Commons is much different from Shannon Park. 60,000 people are in walking distance of the Commons, I'd guess that number is less than 5,000 for Shannon Park.

[Keith P.]

Shannon is a very poor location for a stadium. I suspect the proponents chose it in anticipation of getting free land as part of the federal contribution and being able to designate the current pie-in-the-sky residential development around it as part of the taxing area that would contribute to repaying the stadium costs down the road.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Good points by all. Certainly there are reasons to have reservations about the current proposal and the deal as proposed.

However, I can't help but be left with the feeling that if it's not acted upon soon, the opportunity is going to dry up and blow away.

For example, if the Metro Centre hadn't been built when it was, that plot of land would now likely be occupied by some sort of office building, and the arena would have eventually been built somewhere else, or not at all.

Unless some slam dunk proposal comes along, like somehow building on part of the Cogswell lands, with underground parking and a transit hub (downtown!), this is all going to fizzle out. I am thinking that, without a clear path to a stadium, the CFL opportunity might just dry up as well.

I guess we'll see.

[ILoveHalifax]

I have lived in larger cities where there are all kinds of events with NO PARKING - Smart people might make some good extra money renting parking on their front lawns or long driveways or on some other local parking lots and there are lots of streets where cars can park along them. There are lots of opportunities for everybody. Do we really need to spend more than the stadium building multi level parking garages or high speed subways to make a CFL team/stadium work?

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by j.graham

The location is basically unwalkable for most of the peninsula and Dartmouth, so bussing will be required. The current fleet is 312 buses, and the development group's proposal is to utilise 300 buses for main events. So normal bus service would have to be suspended during events.

School buses maybe?

[elly63]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I am thinking that, without a clear path to a stadium, the CFL opportunity might just dry up as well.

I'm thinking more of Sport Nova Scotia and all the other stakeholders involved in the stadium. What if the proposed CFL ownership pulls the pin and gets out, there still is a need for a decent permanent stadium, albeit smaller. There was 30 million on the books for this so obviously someone saw a need. Even without the CFL, if this doesn't happen, Halifax will have blown it again.

[j.graham]

Originally Posted by Djeffery

School buses maybe?

Possible, but much worse for accessibility. Would require separate accessible school buses instead of all buses being accessible. Tougher logistically to organize that.

[cutchemist42]

As a former Cole Harbour kid who moved to Winnipeg....I hope it works out and I'll be at the first Bomber game there!!

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'm thinking more of Sport Nova Scotia and all the other stakeholders involved in the stadium. What if the proposed CFL ownership pulls the pin and gets out, there still is a need for a decent permanent stadium, albeit smaller. There was 30 million on the books for this so obviously someone saw a need. Even without the CFL, if this doesn't happen, Halifax will have blown it again.

True enough.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by j.graham

Possible, but much worse for accessibility. Would require separate accessible school buses instead of all buses being accessible. Tougher logistically to organize that.

There is a bus company that's just salivating at the chance to land the contract..

These are all challenges modern cities deal with everyday. We can look at the potential losses or we can see this being a catalyst to transform a part of the city which houses a large part of the economy of Halifax and could use greater connectivity with the rest of the city. Here's an idea no one has thought up before, imagine a high speed ferry from Bedford to Dartmouth/Burnside then on to Halifax.

Each of the problems we have in Halifax aren't isolated to themselves. Transit encompasses a wide range of social and political issues all tangled up together. This is a fairly new municipal jurisdiction comparatively and we should be looking at things with a larger scope. This is the economic engine of the Maritimes where over 1/4 of all Atlantic Canada resides. We need to invest in this idea or lose it, this stadium is just another project in a long line of projects that are dead in the water as long we keep electing councils that don't have faith in the future of the city. We have a private proposal (as specified by Council) the least we could do is the indepth analyisis that most public decisions should go through, not just ad hoc opinions.
I'm not going to speak on Sam's motion other than it stinks of hypocrisy regarding staffs time and I as well as others in his district don't like the smell of it and will be acting accordingly come voting day.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

This is a fairly new municipal jurisdiction comparatively and we should be looking at things with a larger scope. This is the economic engine of the Maritimes where over 1/4 of all Atlantic Canada resides. We need to invest in this idea or lose it, this stadium is just another project in a long line of projects that are dead in the water as long we keep electing councils that don't have faith in the future of the city. We have a private proposal (as specified by Council) the least we could do is the indepth analyisis that most public decisions should go through, not just ad hoc opinions.

You raise an important issue here. HRM has adopted some very skewed priorities under the last few Councils. Setting aside Nova Centre for a moment, which was essentially a provincial project that was engineered by a provincial group of politicians and civil servants (one of whom is now a senior mgmt nabob with HRM, imagine that) and pushed through HRM because of that, what have HRM's majpr initiatives been? Well, the gold-plated designer library of course, but that had much fed and provincial cash associated with it. It was an overly expensive project and they continue to overspend on operating it, but libraries are now a "special" class of municipal govt and budgets are untouchable. There were a couple of very expensive but unimpressive 4-pad arenas built in the suburbs, collectively pushing close to $100 million for minor hockey. The Oval was a $15 million spend that gets little use on an annual basis. Now we are into bike lanes and "safe streets for everyone" which means reconstructing streets to make them less effiicent for vehicles, adding to traffic woes. The Argyle St experiment is the first example of that and we see weekly examples of how it simply does not work for the businesses there when outraged urbanist types post pictures of delivery trucks forced to stop in the street to deliver product to a customer. I can't think of much else, certainly no new major roads or intersection improvements, no other major municipal buildings, no practical infrastructure improvements. They like to spend their capital on pet projects and flavor-of-the-month ideas out of the planning textbooks instead. But all of those add up to significant amounts.

I'm not going to speak on Sam's motion other than it stinks of hypocrisy regarding staffs time and I as well as others in his district don't like the smell of it and will be acting accordingly come voting day.

I suspect many attentive voters will do the same. Hopefully that tide not only washes away his political career but also some of the more egregious offenders such as Mason, Smith, Cleary, Mancini, Zurawski, Blackburn and Nicholl. Sadly name recognition alone is often all that many voters use when marking their ballot, which is why term limits for municipal council would be a good idea.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

These are all challenges modern cities deal with everyday. We can look at the potential losses or we can see this being a catalyst to transform a part of the city which houses a large part of the economy of Halifax and could use greater connectivity with the rest of the city. Here's an idea no one has thought up before, imagine a high speed ferry from Bedford to Dartmouth/Burnside then on to Halifax.

Ferry service for Shannon Park is potentially a great way to cut down traffic leaving the area via the road network. Halifax already has 5 ferries and they have a capacity of 390 people each. If service were expanded to cover Bedford, which has become likelier now that commuter rail is dead, it would be even better.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

Ferry service for Shannon Park is potentially a great way to cut down traffic leaving the area via the road network. Halifax already has 5 ferries and they have a capacity of 390 people each. If service were expanded to cover Bedford, which has become likelier now that commuter rail is dead, it would be even better.

I remember you had presented that idea here a year or two ago, and I thought it was a great idea then... still do.

It reminds me of Oracle Park in San Francisco, which is right on the bay and has dedicated ferry service to and from the games:
https://sanfranciscobayferry.com/news/sf-giants-ferry-alameda-vallejo-oakland-oracle-park-2019

It's a nice park, and a nice location at water's edge...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Park

Interesting quotes from the wikipedia article linked above:

Oracle Park has also played host to both professional and collegiate American football games. The stadium was the home of the annual college postseason bowl game now known as the Redbox Bowl from its inaugural playing in 2002 until 2013, and also served as the temporary home for the University of California's football team in 2011. Professionally, it was the home of the San Francisco Demons of the XFL and the California Redwoods of the United Football League.

Hmmm... football and baseball? As a baseball fan I'd love to see Halifax's stadium provide opportunities for other sports in addition to soccer and football...

Good transit support:

Public transit access to the stadium is provided within San Francisco by Muni Metro or Muni Bus, from the Peninsula and Santa Clara Valley via Caltrain, and from parts of the Bay Area across the water via various ferries of San Francisco Bay. The Muni 2nd and King Station is directly outside the ballpark, the 4th & King Caltrain station is 1.5 blocks from the stadium, and the Oracle Park Ferry Terminal is outside the east edge of the ballpark beyond the center field bleachers.

Definitely a different deal than the Halifax stadium proposal...

When it opened on March 31, 2000, the ballpark was the first Major League Baseball ballpark built without public funds since the completion of Dodger Stadium in 1962.[12] However, the Giants did receive a $10 million tax abatement from the city and $80 million for upgrades to the local infrastructure (including a connection to the Muni Metro).[13] The Giants have a 66-year lease on the 12.5-acre (51,000 m2) ballpark site, paying $1.2 million in rent annually to the San Francisco Port Commission.[12] The park opened with a seating capacity of 40,800, but this has increased over time as seats have been added.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Definitely a different deal than the Halifax stadium proposal...

You need to do a bunch of accounting to compare it fairly though.

The $90M USD in direct subsidies in 2000 work out to $178M in 2019 CAD.

The SF stadium pays $1.2M in rent but the site is assessed by the city at over $400M! The deal is equivalent to a situation in Halifax where the WDC handed a stadium-sized chunk of downtown waterfront over to the CFL promoters and charged them $200,000 a year for it. Instead the CFL promoters are buying land for their project.

I bet the real subsidy per seat is similar or maybe even higher for the SF stadium, although it sounds like the private project spending is hugely higher for SF.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

You need to do a bunch of accounting to compare it fairly though.

The $90M USD in direct subsidies in 2000 work out to $178M in 2019 CAD.

The SF stadium pays $1.2M in rent but the site is assessed by the city at over $400M! The deal is equivalent to a situation in Halifax where the WDC handed a stadium-sized chunk of downtown waterfront over to the CFL promoters and charged them $200,000 a year for it. Instead the CFL promoters are buying land for their project.

I bet the real subsidy per seat is similar or maybe even higher for the SF stadium, although it sounds like the private project spending is hugely higher for SF.

Yeah, I meant it more on a conceptual level, but you make good points.

Overall, I was thinking in terms of the city recognizing that there are net benefits over and above financial return on having an iconic stadium, and has gone to great expense to provide good transit to support the facility. Of course it's San Francisco, not Halifax, but I think the same principles apply.

In considering a potential higher subsidy per seat one must also take into account that this is a much grander facility than the one proposed for Halifax. And being an MLB stadium it has a much higher profile than any CFL stadium that Halifax would have (and thus more spinoff benefits to the city IMHO). But you have to start somewhere...

Also, that plot of land in SF will always appreciate in value, so if the Giants don't renew their lease when it's up, the city will still own the land for sale or redevelopment. If the CFL promoters are buying the land, then the city is paying for a stadium that they don't own, and if the owners decide to sell at some point (i.e. if the franchise does not prove successful), where does that leave the city? No stadium (that our tax money has paid for) and no land. I know I'm not grasping all the details here, but it doesn't seem like a good deal for us...

...but I do want a stadium to be built and think we should not just give up on it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Of course it's San Francisco, not Halifax, but I think the same principles apply.

I've said before that it seems to me like Halifax municipal planning is suited to a smaller city. Case in point, the CFL stadium is treated like a huge make-or-break thing when it's just a medium-sized project for a municipality on its way to half a million people.

When Edmonton started planning its LRT in 1962 it had about 300,000 people. The commuter rail project was much more modest and no LRT plan has ever been seriously contemplated for Halifax.

HRM today has the same population as Vancouver city in 1986, the year Vancouver hosted the world's fair.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I've said before that it seems to me like Halifax municipal planning is suited to a smaller city. Case in point, the CFL stadium is treated like a huge make-or-break thing when it's just a medium-sized project for a municipality on its way to half a million people.

When Edmonton started planning its LRT in 1962 it had about 300,000 people. The commuter rail project was much more modest and no LRT plan has ever been seriously contemplated for Halifax.

HRM today has the same population as Vancouver city in 1986, the year Vancouver hosted the world's fair.

Agreed, Halifax should be thinking bigger and planning better for the future. As I mentioned above, I believe the window could close on this project, at least in terms of land availability. If this had been planned 30 years ago, there would have been all kinds of sites available that today would be considered prime land, and that in the years since have been built up.

I know not everybody is on board with Shannon Park, but if a stadium is not built there it seems highly likely that something else will be - then the site is basically lost forever. Then what's your next choice? Even Dartmouth Crossing is rapidly filling up with new buildings. If we keep delaying it, the darn stadium might well be built in Enfield...