Cogswell Interchange

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by fatscat

Maybe. BRT is just as, if not more, performant (in respect to capacity, costs, people flow) as LRT and it's been mostly untested in Halifax. Our buses are understaffed and also, pretty empty (both different problems), and there aren't many ROWs operating right now that highlight the benefits of such a system. (I think Bayers would be the longest/most developed?)

I love LRT for many reasons (it's way more comfortable for one) but I find the LRT debate gets tied up for too long and the result is we build *nothing* instead. We can begin building more BRT tomorrow and when the time is right, convert that ROW to LRT. You only need to go look over at Toronto and its Transit City mess to see how this can play out (poorly)

I see the LRT argument in the same light as extending BRT - we have actually needed this for many years, but are only considering it now. The ferry situation that people like to complain about is being necessitated because adequate ROWs for rail transit (or separated bus-only roadways, if one prefers buses over rail) weren't secured many years ago, when the land was available (and relatively cheap). Poor planning and slow execution is an old problem that continues being repeated, unfortunately.

I don't think it really matters whether people are moved by bus or rail, but it seems rail could have an advantage of being able to move more people, and be able to work in situations that would be impractical for buses (thinking of Keith's comment regarding using the BUP ROW for LRT, but also running elevated tracks in areas where ground-level ROWs are not possible, etc.).

I think the new ferry routes are a good idea, since it doesn't require a land ROW that doesn't exist, but they are still limited to harbour access. LRT could be run further out to communities where people currently rely on cars to get into the city because they don't have another option (thinking of Elmsdale, Lantz, etc, for example, as these communities are expanding and many residents work in HRM and thus have to commute).

The main point I was trying to make, though, is that we have experienced growth that hasn't been supported by infrastructure, so the future is now.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fatscat

I love LRT for many reasons (it's way more comfortable for one) but I find the LRT debate gets tied up for too long and the result is we build *nothing* instead. We can begin building more BRT tomorrow and when the time is right, convert that ROW to LRT. You only need to go look over at Toronto and its Transit City mess to see how this can play out (poorly)

My impression is that there is a BRT plan for Halifax, it is getting held up by a lack of provincial funding, and it is possible that committed federal funding will be lost due to the delays.

I agree with your point about fixating on LRT and getting nothing but I think the big "service gap" is between dedicated ROW and not dedicated ROW and that is often the more difficult or expensive part of providing transit, not whether the vehicles are on wheels or rails.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by someone123

My impression is that there is a BRT plan for Halifax, it is getting held up by a lack of provincial funding, and it is possible that committed federal funding will be lost due to the delays.

I agree with your point about fixating on LRT and getting nothing but I think the big "service gap" is between dedicated ROW and not dedicated ROW and that is often the more difficult or expensive part of providing transit, not whether the vehicles are on wheels or rails.

Yes, without the provincial funding, this BRT/LRT debate is completely moot; nothing will happen. There's a whole rapid-transit ready to go, with federal money on offer, that the Houston government is slowly killing by refusing even to comment on requests for its share of the funding to make it happen.

If we want to have BRT, let alone BRT corridors we can upgrade to LRT in the future, I strongly recommending writing to the premier, municipal affairs minister John Lohr, and public works minister Kim Masland and express how important that funding is.

[someone123]

It seems incredibly out of touch (what's with half of the premiers coming from Pictou or rural CB?). NS is becoming more urban and most development is in urban areas. There has been a big shift toward developing in transit-friendly parts of the metro area with most new development happening in multi-unit.

I think another thing that will matter in NS is that affordability and living standards are generally deteriorating and if that continues a larger proportion of society will find themselves relying on transit. This feels like yet another intergenerational divide with some older people pushing 90's-style development that is basically inaccessible to a lot of younger people who don't even have driver's licenses let alone own suburban houses.

[JHikka]

Ottawa provides a good case example of a BRT network hanging on longer than it should have when it should have been converted to LRT far earlier. The network was there and quite good but faced severe backlogs in the at-grade sections of downtown, thereby making the whole system unreliable at its peak hours. LRT was maybe twenty years too late but it was at least a bit easier to swallow given that most of the ROW was already there and slightly easier to convert to LRT.

There's a good argument to be made that, if demand warrants it, skipping over BRT in favour of going directly to LRT makes sense, but in a situation like Halifax where there is no real experience or exposure with either it may be more publicly permissable to begin with BRT and make the case for LRT with that.

[someone123]

Halifax is a lot more space constrained and has a gnarlier road network than most Canadian cities and has more geographic challenges than most which means that more expensive and denser transit is more worthwhile.

A good question to ask is whether people feel that transit lanes along Gottingen and Bayers Road made a big difference and will work as the backbone of a rapid transit system decades into the future. That's what the BRT system will be like; some routes arguably already are BRT depending on your definition (the old MetroLink service was referred to as BRT).

It's kinda pessimistic but I see Halifax evolving into a state where traffic is a total mess and if you want to be downtown and you can afford it you live on the peninsula while most others have trouble getting there. That might even be what happens if the transit plan is funded. It is very modest for a long-term plan in a city with minimal other transport investment growing at 2% per year. I think Canada in general is headed toward "second world" level infrastructure (lots of average people living in small apartments and spending a lot of time on cramped buses to get to where they want to go).

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think another thing that will matter in NS is that affordability and living standards are generally deteriorating and if that continues a larger proportion of society will find themselves relying on transit. This feels like yet another intergenerational divide with some older people pushing 90's-style development that is basically inaccessible to a lot of younger people who don't even have driver's licenses let alone own suburban houses.

Man, you paint a depressing picture. Do you really think that our current trajectory is headed towards worsening living standards as a long-term static condition?

My thoughts are that Halifax is experiencing growing pains, whereby we have experienced unprecedented growth that our political people were not expecting and aren't equipped with long-term vision to the point of being sufficiently proactive. My vision is that the housing shortage would be short-term until we are completely out of the Covid supply chain cloud, and then supply would catch up with demand.

I know you are looking at this from the perspective of your Vancouver experience, but I'm not entirely clear that Halifax will suffer the same fate.

As far as the young/old divide goes, I think that having different ideals is per normal for our current times (and our recent history - like the past 50 years, for that matter), and I look at the not wanting a drivers license thing to be a choice (don't need or want it, prefer an urban lifestyle with less stuff to worry about) rather than something that is forced. (I mean, even if you can't afford a car, having a license is a capability that's handy to have - it could even keep a person open to more employment options in the future.). In terms of cost, is it really cheaper to live in an apartment within the urban part of the city? I have worked with younger people in their 20s and 30s who had absolutely no interest in living in a condo on the peninsula - in fact they found the idea abhorrent - and thus chose to buy a cheaper home outside the city and drive to the city to work. To them there was no way that the urban lifestyle would ever be a possibility unless they were forced into it, and they found that living further outside the city reduced their costs (even with the cost of commuting) to the point of being affordable for them. The key point is that they were able to make some compromises and are happy with their living situations. Maybe it would be less-so with the real estate bubble that we have been living in over the past couple of years, but then we're back to the supply/demand thing.

Regardless, I hope the doom and gloom forecast doesn't hold true. In a country like Canada people should always be able to aspire to achieve the life that they want, and if the general idea is that 'we can't do it so don't even bother', then call me depressed. We have failed as a country.

[fatscat]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yes, without the provincial funding, this BRT/LRT debate is completely moot; nothing will happen. There's a whole rapid-transit ready to go, with federal money on offer, that the Houston government is slowly killing by refusing even to comment on requests for its share of the funding to make it happen.

If we want to have BRT, let alone BRT corridors we can upgrade to LRT in the future, I strongly recommending writing to the premier, municipal affairs minister John Lohr, and public works minister Kim Masland and express how important that funding is.

Interesting. I didn't realize it was held up by the provincial government. It's not much, but I'll definitely be sending an email or three

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Yes, without the provincial funding, this BRT/LRT debate is completely moot; nothing will happen. There's a whole rapid-transit ready to go, with federal money on offer, that the Houston government is slowly killing by refusing even to comment on requests for its share of the funding to make it happen.

If we want to have BRT, let alone BRT corridors we can upgrade to LRT in the future, I strongly recommending writing to the premier, municipal affairs minister John Lohr, and public works minister Kim Masland and express how important that funding is.

How much does it cost to build 1km of BRT ROW?

We are spending millions annually on bike lanes, traffic bollards, speed bumps, curb bump-outs and Austicks (TM Regd.) so that money should be redirected immediately. Many more millions could be found by eliminating many of HRMs politically correct virtue-signaling initiatives. HRM has only themselves to blame.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Man, you paint a depressing picture. Do you really think that our current trajectory is headed towards worsening living standards as a long-term static condition?

It's a completely different tangent but there's plenty of evidence available that within our societal structure things will only decline the further we go along with our current system. That goes for broad-based Western society, federally, provincially, and municipally.

A key question to ask is what we think Canada's trajectory will be in 5, 10, 15, etc. years, and mapping out if we think things will be 'better' or 'worse' in that future. There are plenty of different ways to quantify that one way or another. I'm only assuming that someone is referring to the ever increasing wage and wealth gap in Canada and elsewhere as a sign of further things to come, as society further separates and silos away from itself. The system isn't currently designed to do anything but separate us along class lines and the disaparity shows no signs of slowing down.

Anyway.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Regardless, I hope the doom and gloom forecast doesn't hold true. In a country like Canada people should always be able to aspire to achieve the life that they want, and if the general idea is that 'we can't do it so don't even bother', then call me depressed. We have failed as a country.

How often have you considered or heard of a proposal being immediately shot down and denied simply because it's not feasible? Many other places are doing many incredible things but we're lacking cohesion and vision in Canada to really move forward on anything concrete or significant importance. How much pushback is there in Halifax on, say, bike lanes, or BRT lanes, or LRTs, and how difficult is it to get them built? They're incredibly small things for a growing city like Halifax to manage and yet seem impossible to create without significant headache and conflict. In Canada we seem unable to build something as simple as high-speed rail between cities of millions and we're continually paying the price being unable to do so, as one policy example.

Extrapolate that out to anything else in society and hopefully someone's point becomes more salient regarding our immediate and long-term future.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by fatscat

Interesting. I didn't realize it was held up by the provincial government. It's not much, but I'll definitely be sending an email or three

There’s fairly frequent conversation about this on local urban-affairs Twitter (where some councillors have discussed it), but basically zero media coverage or other broader discussions. Councillors are allergic to making a fuss publicly and potentially upsetting provincial colleagues, but the result is that almost no one really knows that A: there’s a reasonably good plan in place to level up transit in the city, and B: it requires funding from three levels of government, one of which is just sitting things out so far.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

We are spending millions annually on bike lanes, traffic bollards, speed bumps, curb bump-outs and Austicks (TM Regd.)

"Austicks". I like it.

I proposed "Samerrhoids" for the giant speed bumps some time ago but, sadly, it seems not to have caught on.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

How often have you considered or heard of a proposal being immediately shot down and denied simply because it's not feasible? Many other places are doing many incredible things but we're lacking cohesion and vision in Canada to really move forward on anything concrete or significant importance. How much pushback is there in Halifax on, say, bike lanes, or BRT lanes, or LRTs, and how difficult is it to get them built? They're incredibly small things for a growing city like Halifax to manage and yet seem impossible to create without significant headache and conflict. In Canada we seem unable to build something as simple as high-speed rail between cities of millions and we're continually paying the price being unable to do so, as one policy example.

I was actually referring to people who have apparently given up, i.e. "a lot of younger people who don't even have driver's licenses let alone own suburban houses", hoping that they, at some point, have opportunities to hope for more than a crappy apartment on the peninsula, unless that's what they want (which is fine, of course).

However, from your point it is obvious that the same sentiment can equally be applied to Halifax. Well said.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I was actually referring to people who have apparently given up, i.e. "a lot of younger people who don't even have driver's licenses let alone own suburban houses", hoping that they, at some point, have opportunities to hope for more than a crappy apartment on the peninsula, unless that's what they want (which is fine, of course).

I wouldn't necessarily classify this as giving up - there's always stories of New Yorkers who live their entire lives without ever having a driver's license. Why would they? That doesn't make NY any less of the fantastic city it is. The same can be said for younger people living in larger cities. Ideally the city provides various options for people to live their lives, whether with a car or driver's license or not. If young people can't get that in a city and really want that lifestyle they'll move elsewhere. Half the people I know in Toronto are people from small towns who left for the lifestyle that a larger city affords, myself included.

For Halifax a lot of the growing pains of becoming a growing, larger city is that it needs to become more multi-faceted and inclusive for all types of people. Owning a suburban home in Bedford shouldn't really be the only endgoal, should it? There should be options of many different varieties and outcomes so that a good mix of people can live in the city. That's what makes cities cities. Hoping for a good ending consisting of a large SFH in the 'burbs with two cars and a dog and a white picket fence feels very...1950s. Not only is that not reasonable these days but also not environmentally conscious, but that's another tangent entirely.

I'm assuming what someone is referring to is a disconnect in the older generations pushing that outcome as being the ideal outcome and younger generations arguing that it doesn't have to be like that at all. The issue is that the society they've created is one where homes are more valuable than careers and create more value and wealth in a society where that is paramount. If a basic necessity like housing is too expensive then it will dissuade many from wanting to take part at all. What's the point?

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

However, from your point it is obvious that the same sentiment can equally be applied to Halifax. Well said.

Halifax doesn't exist in a vacuum. Comparisons can be made on a lot of things, and that's why I always encourage people to travel and visit other cities, no matter how temporarily, to see how people live and work in different settings.

[Haliguy]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I was actually referring to people who have apparently given up, i.e. "a lot of younger people who don't even have driver's licenses let alone own suburban houses", hoping that they, at some point, have opportunities to hope for more than a crappy apartment on the peninsula, unless that's what they want (which is fine, of course).

However, from your point it is obvious that the same sentiment can equally be applied to Halifax. Well said.

Not everyone aspires to have suburban house.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Not everyone aspires to have suburban house.

Agreed, and I also agree that a city should provide for all different types and styles of living arrangements.

Having said this, there is a distinct tendency amongst the most dedicated of urbanists to paint suburbanites as "the problem", and that this lifestyle choice should be avoided and derided as much as possible. I consider this unfair.

It is a lifestyle choice, one that we end up paying dearly for, but is still valid nonetheless. It remains the ideal for many families, especially with small children.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by JHikka

I wouldn't necessarily classify this as giving up - there's always stories of New Yorkers who live their entire lives without ever having a driver's license. Why would they? That doesn't make NY any less of the fantastic city it is. The same can be said for younger people living in larger cities. Ideally the city provides various options for people to live their lives, whether with a car or driver's license or not. If young people can't get that in a city and really want that lifestyle they'll move elsewhere. Half the people I know in Toronto are people from small towns who left for the lifestyle that a larger city affords, myself included.

For Halifax a lot of the growing pains of becoming a growing, larger city is that it needs to become more multi-faceted and inclusive for all types of people. Owning a suburban home in Bedford shouldn't really be the only endgoal, should it? There should be options of many different varieties and outcomes so that a good mix of people can live in the city. That's what makes cities cities. Hoping for a good ending consisting of a large SFH in the 'burbs with two cars and a dog and a white picket fence feels very...1950s. Not only is that not reasonable these days but also not environmentally conscious, but that's another tangent entirely.

I'm assuming what someone is referring to is a disconnect in the older generations pushing that outcome as being the ideal outcome and younger generations arguing that it doesn't have to be like that at all. The issue is that the society they've created is one where homes are more valuable than careers and create more value and wealth in a society where that is paramount. If a basic necessity like housing is too expensive then it will dissuade many from wanting to take part at all. What's the point?

I thought I covered that off with: "unless that's what they want (which is fine, of course)".

To answer some of your assertions (and then let the thread get back to Cogswell):
- The way that someone wrote that "they don't even have drivers licenses", implied to me that it was a deficiency, not a strong choice based upon a chosen lifestyle. And that deficiency means that they can only choose one way of living. That sounds like giving up. I'm sure this is an unpopular point of view, especially among the crowd that views not having a drivers license as some sort of badge of honour, but I view having a drivers license as a life skill that one should make the effort to do. Even if you never drive a car for the rest of your life, you know how to do it, and have a license to do so if you ever want/need to. Maybe this won't apply in the future, but there are some jobs where driving is part of the job - my comment about limiting employment opportunities applies here as without a license you will exclude yourself from those opportunities. Regardless, I think you zeroed in on the drivers license thing as most ardent urbanists seem to look at it as some kind of evil (which is your right, even if I disagree... proper thing). Sure if you live in NY, you can live your entire life in the city and never need a license - if that's what makes you happy, then great... go for it.

- Living in a SFH in Bedford (or Cole Harbour, or Lantz) doesn't have to be anybody's end goal, but again, I was referring to the idea that if somebody wanted to do that, but feels they can't because they can't get a drivers license and never could afford a SFH in their lifetime, I view this as a failure of our country. No reasonable form of living should be considered out of reach for anybody of any background, which isn't to say that a fry cook should be able to afford a McMansion in the south end, but it is to say that a small SFH should be accessible to any person with average to above average income. What appears to be happening is that housing has become a commodity rather than a functional living space, and the only hope that a young person has of getting into one is either through being a top 10% income earner or receiving a house through an inheritance. To condense it down a little, people should have options, and if the future trajectory is for them to not have options, then we have a problem and that problem should be addressed.

- I get tired of reading of the "disconnect of the older generations". There have been "generation gaps" as long as I can remember, unfortunately, and the younger generations have always looked at it being a problem with the 'older generations', but historically have always failed to look inwards. Basically, I view it as young adults getting tired of being told how to live their lives and pushback occurring. It's normal, it's fine, but often in these forums it's being pushed as some sort of massive failure of older generations. Usually I just smile and think to myself "just wait until you are part of the older generation... you have a lot to look forward to...", which is what i am doing now.

Originally Posted by JHikka

Halifax doesn't exist in a vacuum. Comparisons can be made on a lot of things, and that's why I always encourage people to travel and visit other cities, no matter how temporarily, to see how people live and work in different settings.

Which I have done, as well. I'm not sure if that's what you were implying, but yes, I've experienced life in places other than Halifax... and choose to be here because I like it.

Off track, but several years ago I was offered a position in Toronto with higher salary and more opportunities, but having visited Toronto for many business trips, and many trips to visit friends and family who live there, I decided that living in a place that I love was more important than career advancement. I didn't and still don't care much for Toronto, despite all that it has to offer. You didn't like living NS and decided you would rather live in Toronto. Different people, different preferences. Amazing how that works.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Haliguy

Not everyone aspires to have suburban house.

Covered in my response below. Edit: errrr... above.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Agreed, and I also agree that a city should provide for all different types and styles of living arrangements.

Having said this, there is a distinct tendency amongst the most dedicated of urbanists to paint suburbanites as "the problem", and that this lifestyle choice should be avoided and derided as much as possible. I consider this unfair.

It is a lifestyle choice, one that we end up paying dearly for, but is still valid nonetheless. It remains the ideal for many families, especially with small children.

Then the true cost of these suburban areas should be paid by people wanting to live there.

The constant drain of the suburbs on denser areas is why we can't have nice things here. Logistically, they are a nightmare to get services out to and the costs are rarely recouped by the time to replace them comes.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Which I have done, as well. I'm not sure if that's what you were implying, but yes, I've experienced life in places other than Halifax... and choose to be here because I like it.

Sorry, that wasn't my implication. It was meant more as a general POV.

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

Off track, but several years ago I was offered a position in Toronto with higher salary and more opportunities, but having visited Toronto for many business trips, and many trips to visit friends and family who live there, I decided that living in a place that I love was more important than career advancement. I didn't and still don't care much for Toronto, despite all that it has to offer. You didn't like living NS and decided you would rather live in Toronto. Different people, different preferences. Amazing how that works.

It's not for everyone. I won't be spending the rest of my life in Toronto and will probably end up back in the Maritimes eventually. For where I am in my life at the moment it's offering what I want. Everyone's different.

Originally Posted by TheNovaScotian

Then the true cost of these suburban areas should be paid by people wanting to live there.

The recent apathy and result in Ontario's vastly amalgamated urban centres for municipal elections is not all that dissimilar to Halifax's wide-ranging geographic area. Suburbs which are able to outvote and dictate what happens in the city despite being more of a drain on resources than their urban counterparts.

Anyway, I digress.