Third Harbour Crossing

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

What these discussions highlight quite well is the ludicrously low tolls that HDBC have been charging for decades. It is not unusual for major bridges elsewhere to charge tolls in the $5 to $10 range. Given the costs involved, ours should be the same.

Too true. And by keeping them so ridiculously low for so many decades, the bridge commission has conditioned us to expect them to remain that way forever. Imagine the ungodly wailing if they proposed even a $3 or $4 toll.

[atbw]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Too true. And by keeping them so ridiculously low for so many decades, the bridge commission has conditioned us to expect them to remain that way forever. Imagine the ungodly wailing if they proposed even a $3 or $4 toll.

I think this proposal actually came to light after the discussion of a toll increase of less than a dollar. For whatever reason I had come to think that it was $2 for quite some time, despite having a MacPass.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

If the MacKay is falling apart as seems to be the case, you can discuss ferries and commuter rail (and if you're a loony, gondolas) all you want but those will not fix the core problem. Virtually all heavy truck traffic is funneled onto the MacKay, which probably has had a lot to do with its structural problems. To get that truck traffic from the Halifax side to the Dartmouth side and vice-versa, you need a bridge or bridges (or tunnel equivalent). Full stop.

What these discussions highlight quite well is the ludicrously low tolls that HDBC have been charging for decades. It is not unusual for major bridges elsewhere to charge tolls in the $5 to $10 range. Given the costs involved, ours should be the same.

You know, if only there was a structure that could carry heavy truck traffic, could be located at an existing highway, and that could be built and last. I am sure if I "dig" deep enough, I might figure something out.

The bigger issue is the lack of a highway on the peninsula. There should be a divided highway from the MacKay Bridge to the 102, and if a Third Crossing happens, it should also connect to the 102.

[Dengler Avenue]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You know, if only there was a structure that could carry heavy truck traffic, could be located at an existing highway, and that could be built and last. I am sure if I "dig" deep enough, I might figure something out.

The bigger issue is the lack of a highway on the peninsula. There should be a divided highway from the MacKay Bridge to the 102, and if a Third Crossing happens, it should also connect to the 102.

That ship has sailed though, especially now that Cogwell Interchange is demolished.

Ps: I guess going on the Burnside Connector then 102 is a very very very long detour?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dengler Avenue

That ship has sailed though, especially now that Cogwell Interchange is demolished.

Ps: I guess going on the Burnside Connector then 102 is a very very very long detour?

The Cogwell interchange has nothing to do with either.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The bigger issue is the lack of a highway on the peninsula. There should be a divided highway from the MacKay Bridge to the 102, and if a Third Crossing happens, it should also connect to the 102.

Yes indeed. In the past couple of decades there were a couple of proposals in this vein. One that I recall was the "Vimy Flyover", which involved a structure coming straight off the Windsor St Exchange that was elevated over the rock cliff bordering the west side of the Bedford Highway at that point and proceeding through Fairview. Presumably it would somehow connect to Lacewood and then to the 102. HRM chose not to proceed and in truth it was probably more of a solution for local traffic than an arterial connector.

The other and far more practical approach was developed by former MP/Federal Cabinet Minister Erik Nielsen after he retired from govt and was working at Dalhousie. It seems to have vanished from the Internet but a number of years back he came out with a proposal to connect the Windsor St Exchange to the 102 by elevating a road over Fairview Lawn cemetery, then touching down behind the Superstore and continuing parallel to the railway until reaching the Bayers Rd/102 terminus. Of course that made far too much sense to ever be done here.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The bigger issue is the lack of a highway on the peninsula. There should be a divided highway from the MacKay Bridge to the 102, and if a Third Crossing happens, it should also connect to the 102.

I've pondered that countless times while sitting in traffic just trying to get from the Dartmouth side of the harbor to the 103 to go to the South Shore. Having to go through city streets in Halifax to get from the MacKay to the 102 and then make the 103 connection can be a major pain in the ass, depending on the day and time.

But there doesn't seem to be any realistic alternative. Where would you put it, and what would it be? An elevated expressway through Fairview? Never gonna happen (nor should it).

The Burnside Connector may possibly provide a (marginally) quicker route, but not a really attractive option. It would be an awfully looooong way around the problem.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Yes indeed. In the past couple of decades there were a couple of proposals in this vein. One that I recall was the "Vimy Flyover", which involved a structure coming straight off the Windsor St Exchange that was elevated over the rock cliff bordering the west side of the Bedford Highway at that point and proceeding through Fairview. Presumably it would somehow connect to Lacewood and then to the 102. HRM chose not to proceed and in truth it was probably more of a solution for local traffic than an arterial connector.

The other and far more practical approach was developed by former MP/Federal Cabinet Minister Erik Nielsen after he retired from govt and was working at Dalhousie. It seems to have vanished from the Internet but a number of years back he came out with a proposal to connect the Windsor St Exchange to the 102 by elevating a road over Fairview Lawn cemetery, then touching down behind the Superstore and continuing parallel to the railway until reaching the Bayers Rd/102 terminus. Of course that made far too much sense to ever be done here.

If it makes sense, Halifax and NS on a whole won't be doing it.
The second one makes the most sense. It would require little land acquiring from homeowners.

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I've pondered that countless times while sitting in traffic just trying to get from the Dartmouth side of the harbor to the 103 to go to the South Shore. Having to go through city streets in Halifax to get from the MacKay to the 102 and then make the 103 connection can be a major pain in the ass, depending on the day and time.

But there doesn't seem to be any realistic alternative. Where would you put it, and what would it be? An elevated expressway through Fairview? Never gonna happen (nor should it).

The Burnside Connector may possibly provide a (marginally) quicker route, but not a really attractive option. It would be an awfully looooong way around the problem.

Build it over Joseph Howe. Problem solved. As far as Burnside, unless you are going further than Hamonds Plains, I don't see how it can be faster.

[Summerville]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Build it over Joseph Howe. Problem solved. As far as Burnside, unless you are going further than Hamonds Plains, I don't see how it can be faster.

I thought the same thing, but I am not an expert. Couldn't you do a better off ramp to Joe Howe and then upgrade Joe Howe for more traffic?

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

If it makes sense, Halifax and NS on a whole won't be doing it.

Build it over Joseph Howe. Problem solved. As far as Burnside, unless you are going further than Hamonds Plains, I don't see how it can be faster.

"Build it over Joseph Howe" - how? You mean literally an elevated expressway above the street? Surely not. If so, I can't imagine an uglier and more obtrusive "solution".

And no, the Burnside Connector really wouldn't be any better - which is pretty much what I said.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Summerville

I thought the same thing, but I am not an expert. Couldn't you do a better off ramp to Joe Howe and then upgrade Joe Howe for more traffic?

So, build it into a freeway? That i the only way to make it better.

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

"Build it over Joseph Howe" - how? You mean literally an elevated expressway above the street? Surely not. If so, I can't imagine an uglier and more obtrusive "solution".

And no, the Burnside Connector really wouldn't be any better - which is pretty much what I said.

Ok, build it over the rail line. Problem solved.
Before you complain about it, come up with a solution, otherwise, you are part of the problem.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Before you complain about it, come up with a solution, otherwise, you are part of the problem.

I was simply participating in a discussion, debating the merits of an idea. That doesn't make my opinion a "complaint", and the fact that I don't have a better solution than yours does not make me "part of the problem".

I must say, I certainly didn't expect such a sophomoric response on this board. I suppose next you'll tell me that "there's no such thing as a stupid question".

Anyway, as I already suggested, I don't think I've heard of a truly workable solution to the problem. Maybe one will come up yet.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I was simply participating in a discussion, debating the merits of an idea. That doesn't make my opinion a "complaint", and the fact that I don't have a better solution than yours does not make me "part of the problem".

I must say, I certainly didn't expect such a sophomoric response on this board. I suppose next you'll tell me that "there's no such thing as a dumb question".

The problem is that many people complain about something, like congestion. So, then someone suggests a solution. Those people then poke holes in it. They then keep complaining about congestion. It is a circular problem throughout this forum, not just this topic.

So, we either accept the mess and the fact it will get worse, or we come up with a reasonable solution.

So, when you poo poo on someone's idea, it doesn't get the discussion going further. It stops it.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, when you poo poo on someone's idea, it doesn't get the discussion going further. It stops it.

Critiquing ideas is the very essence of debate and critical thinking. Simply accepting an idea as "problem solved" when it may be an impractical or otherwise inappropriate solution accomplishes nothing useful.

As for "poo pooing", I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone. I was expressing an opinion about an idea, not a person. But anyway, that shouldn't, as you suggest, "stop discussion" - and clearly, it hasn't.

And once again, I've pondered this particular problem for years and I don't think it has a currently feasible solution, though I'm all ears. I don't think that makes me "part of the problem".

[NS Bayman]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The other and far more practical approach was developed by former MP/Federal Cabinet Minister Erik Nielsen after he retired from govt and was working at Dalhousie. It seems to have vanished from the Internet but a number of years back he came out with a proposal to connect the Windsor St Exchange to the 102 by elevating a road over Fairview Lawn cemetery, then touching down behind the Superstore and continuing parallel to the railway until reaching the Bayers Rd/102 terminus. Of course that made far too much sense to ever be done here.

I think about this possible connector HWY every time I am driving to/from the 102 and Windsor Street Exchange. I would have to think that the pesky Fairview Cemetery is the big hurdle in this case. It is one of our more popular tourist sites after all.

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

I've pondered that countless times while sitting in traffic just trying to get from the Dartmouth side of the harbor to the 103 to go to the South Shore. Having to go through city streets in Halifax to get from the MacKay to the 102 and then make the 103 connection can be a major pain in the ass, depending on the day and time.

But there doesn't seem to be any realistic alternative. Where would you put it, and what would it be? An elevated expressway through Fairview? Never gonna happen (nor should it).

The Burnside Connector may possibly provide a (marginally) quicker route, but not a really attractive option. It would be an awfully looooong way around the problem.

I also sit in this traffic every day trying to get from the South Shore to Burnside. I believe the new Burnside connector will help immensely despite more HWY miles. The traffic right now is barely tolerable... when there is no accident on Bayers Rd., Windsor St. Ex., McKay Bridge, Jo Howe, or Magazine Hill. If one of those areas has an accident it almost doubles the commute. If two areas have accident, then I am driving my ass to Fall River and jumping on the 118.

The connector HWY from the 102 terminus can either be built somehow over the rail cut or on the property of those large seedy apartment buildings that are along the rail cut. Fo it to work the cluster of homes right at the 102 terminus will need to go and maybe those apartment buildings, which IMO is a net win for everyone but the people that currently live in them. I have been in one building before and they were nothing special... and that was 15 years ago. The cemetery remains an issue.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by NS Bayman

I have been in one building before and they were nothing special... and that was 15 years ago. The cemetery remains an issue.

I suspect those in the cemetery would say it's also nothing special...

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by atbw

Quick content clarifying the proposal for those who don’t subscribe to the Examiner:

The new bridge would be built immediately to the North of the Mackay, keeping it operational during construction. It’s 6 lanes would be comprised of 4 traffic lanes and 2 bus/HOV/emerg lanes plus AT and pedestrian paths. A shift North can be pretty easily taken in by the Dartmouth approach, but will require an s-bend on the Halifax side. Perhaps that can be ironed out a bit in the Windsor St exchange.

One thing I absolutely want to see is the removal of toll plazas in exchange for a better method. It seems like a lot of the bridge gum-ups stem from trucks, the change line, or just the slow down around the plaza.

I’ve read the article, albeit after the earlier discussion. Looks like Shannon Park would be spared at the expense of a slice of Africville. People driving on the Mackay will be in for quite a show when construction gets underway.

I think tolls should be replaced with cameras similar to the 407.

[Good Baklava]

Originally Posted by Saul Goode

Critiquing ideas is the very essence of debate and critical thinking. Simply accepting an idea as "problem solved" when it may be an impractical or otherwise inappropriate solution accomplishes nothing useful.

As for "poo pooing", I certainly wasn't trying to offend anyone. I was expressing an opinion about an idea, not a person. But anyway, that shouldn't, as you suggest, "stop discussion" - and clearly, it hasn't.

And once again, I've pondered this particular problem for years and I don't think it has a currently feasible solution, though I'm all ears. I don't think that makes me "part of the problem".

Yeah, when I express an idea I can be slightly annoyed by the critique, but in the end I think it gives me a better lay of the land and for that I’m thankful. I’m easily a pessimist when it comes to large road projects, but it doesn’t mean I “poo” on them.

I get skeptical when an Ontarian comes along and drops large Toronto style project ideas that aren’t sensitive to the context. (Not that I’m immune from doing the same thing)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Yeah, when I express an idea I can be slightly annoyed by the critique, but in the end I think it gives me a better lay of the land and for that I’m thankful. I’m easily a pessimist when it comes to large road projects, but it doesn’t mean I “poo” on them.

I get skeptical when an Ontarian comes along and drops large Toronto style project ideas that aren’t sensitive to the context. (Not that I’m immune from doing the same thing)

I like that jab, but I did live in Halifax. I hated doing anything around 3-6pm. Part of that issue is there are few ways off the peninsula and they are all congested. When I first heard of the idea to put a 3rd crossing in, I looked into it. I learned roughly where the portals would be. It made sense. The issue is that Halifax likes to act like it's a small town, when it is the largest city east of Quebec City. An example was when they widened Chebucto Rd from 2 lanes to 3 lanes and people were protesting the removal of a couple of trees. I get it, the beauty is important, but every hurricane/tropical storm/tropical depression, these old trees fall and cut out power for hundreds if not thousands.

[Saul Goode]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

Yeah, when I express an idea I can be slightly annoyed by the critique, but in the end I think it gives me a better lay of the land and for that I’m thankful. I’m easily a pessimist when it comes to large road projects, but it doesn’t mean I “poo” on them.

I just find it, well...comical, I guess, to be accused of being "part of the problem" because I express disagreement with an idea propounded in, of all places, an internet forum (!) populated by a bunch of development fanboys who are just here to ideate about stuff being built.

I mean, problem? Really? To whom? In what world? Does anyone think that anyone in any kind of position to make any kind of decision about which highways get built in HRM gives a tinker's dam (bucket of warm spit, bag of dirt...take you pick) about what some poster to this forum of building nerds thinks or says? That I could conceivably be any sort of "problem" because of it? Yeah, that's it. I cause traffic jams on Joe Howe just by the sheer power of my obtuse, obstructionist thinking.

The whole notion is just so inane that it can only be funny.