Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[xymox]

Originally Posted by ASU Diablo

U sound like you’re part of the Build a Better Phoenix group lol Valley Metro did studies and it will actually be slower to travel down Central with 4 lanes versus two

Why such accusations? I'm part of no such group - I don't even live in the area. I'm just sharing my observations after having driven the actual route after a very long time.

It was congested mid-day during the week in its current configuration. I can't see how it'd be any slower in a 4 lane configuration + rail - unless they are thinking the light rail is going to add more wait times for left turns. If they are truly wanting people to travel the 7s to get down there and avoid central - then I can follow the logic that their plans would make it 'faster' - as most that current traffic would leave central. But if that's the case then the businesses along Central have a valid complaint about taking business away as the daily commute people are now on two different streets.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by combusean

A transit referendum in a general election would be frightening.

Proposition 400, the countywide tax that provides funding for rail, roads, and buses, passed in the November 2004 general election. It can be done.

[ASU Diablo]

Originally Posted by xymox

Why such accusations? I'm part of no such group - I don't even live in the area. I'm just sharing my observations after having driven the actual route after a very long time.

It was congested mid-day during the week in its current configuration. I can't see how it'd be any slower in a 4 lane configuration + rail - unless they are thinking the light rail is going to add more wait times for left turns. If they are truly wanting people to travel the 7s to get down there and avoid central - then I can follow the logic that their plans would make it 'faster' - as most that current traffic would leave central. But if that's the case then the businesses along Central have a valid complaint about taking business away as the daily commute people are now on two different streets.

It was sarcasm.

You responded that no wonder the BBP Group was pushing for 4 lanes due to traffic/congestion concerns. In reality, Valley Metro’s study confirmed 2 lanes would be faster due to dedicated left-turn lanes

[combusean]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Proposition 400, the countywide tax that provides funding for rail, roads, and buses, passed in the November 2004 general election. It can be done.

Prop 400 wasn't a transit referendum. It was almost exclusively sold to voters as a pro-car measure (Finish the freeways!) and its inclusion of light rail was extensively campaigned against.

I have very low expectations of a transit-only measure passing in Phoenix. Mayyybe it could eke by in an off-year election, but not in a general.

[xymox]

Originally Posted by combusean

Prop 400 wasn't a transit referendum. It was almost exclusively sold to voters as a pro-car measure (Finish the freeways!) and its inclusion of light rail was extensively campaigned against.

I have very low expectations of a transit-only measure passing in Phoenix. Mayyybe it could eke by in an off-year election, but not in a general.

Well transit only has had a historical challenge in this town - I remember in the last 80s after I moved here there was the push for Valtrans - elevated train lines. That failed miserably at the ballot.

I would like to see a strong vision for the next 30 years of transportation in the valley. I know there are some attempts at this - but it all feels like there's no sense of urgency or vision. Would be nice to see a strong push for multi-nodal commuter rail to address the longer commutes, then fill in with light rail & bus lines for local. Add a few freeways/expressways to help (i.e. finish Northern Parkway to SR-51, extend L303 to SR-87, etc). Build the bullet train to Tucson. Then put it up for vote. I think something like this could be successful.

I think we need to do a lot more than simply add 1 more lane to key freeways (i.e. L101) and a few more miles of light rail to support a near doubling of population over the next 30 years. It will be quickly become a nightmare across all commuting options if we don't come up with an aggressive plan.

[exit2lef]

I had an opportunity yesterday to visit the two miles of Main Street in Mesa between Mesa Drive and Gilbert Road. That's the segment where the latest light rail extension will open in May. It's not a long segment -- just two miles and two stations, but it's still nice to see light rail expansion occurring in Mesa despite all that's happening to thwart it in Phoenix. The work is nearly done, and the rebuilt section of Main Street looks quite neat. It goes down to one lane in each direction with flaring for turn lanes at intersections. There are also bike lanes and a roundabout intersection at Horne, the collector street halfway between Stapley and Mesa Drive. I like roundabouts and knew what to expect, but I was still still surprised to see how quickly the arm on the crossing gate descends when a train approaches. I was driving at the time and had to brake pretty firmly to stop short of it. The crossing gate is there to prevent cars from driving in front of trains when making a turn through the roundabout across the tracks. It does not affect traffic traveling straight on Main. Also, the 50th Street Station in Phoenix, an infill project between the existing stations at 44th Street and Priest, will open for passenger service this Thursday, April 25.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by xymox

I would like to see a strong vision for the next 30 years of transportation in the valley. I know there are some attempts at this - but it all feels like there's no sense of urgency or vision.

I think we need to do a lot more than simply add 1 more lane to key freeways (i.e. L101) and a few more miles of light rail to support a near doubling of population over the next 30 years. It will be quickly become a nightmare across all commuting options if we don't come up with an aggressive plan.

What you suggest makes a lot of sense.

One thing that could help is the rising gas prices. I notice it; it's up about 30% since the 1st of the year. It could continue rising but who knows?

One thing that has worked in Colorado is regional bus service. Tried and failed in the past, this time it has caught on. CDOT (aka ADOT) runs buses along the east-west (I-70) and north-south (I-25) freeways. They've doubled the service and would like to expand it more but finding enough bus drivers is a problem. Similarly RTD's BRT service between Boulder and Denver has also been a Big success and more buses had to be added. What make the difference is time-efficiency with few stops and the nice coaches used with Wi-Fi on board. Denver RTD also has trouble finding bus drivers; they're currently over 100 drivers short. Not sure how this might work in metro Phoenix but the obvious appeal is bus service that is competitive ie convenient and speedy appeals to people.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I had an opportunity yesterday to visit the two miles of Main Street in Mesa ... The work is nearly done, and the rebuilt section of Main Street looks quite neat. It goes down to one lane in each direction with flaring for turn lanes at intersections. There are also bike lanes and a roundabout intersection at Horne,

That type of street makeover is appealing with center running BRT as well. Phoenix should consider doing both especially since the cost is about three to one.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

That type of street makeover is appealing with center running BRT as well. Phoenix should consider doing both especially since the cost is about three to one.

Mesa had BRT on Main a few years ago. Then it came to its senses and decided to extend light rail to Gilbert Road.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Mesa had BRT on Main a few years ago. Then it came to its senses and decided to extend light rail to Gilbert Road.

In any case MAG has been feeling xymox's vibes with respect to Prop 500:

https://azbex.com/valley-transportat...tax-extension/

The details of “Imagine” are, in every sense, yet to be determined ... Thomas outlined a four-year plan of research, analysis and development to determine what the Valley needs and what its residents want. Thomas and her colleagues started running focus groups back in October and have set a goal to conduct a survey with more than 50,000 participants.

Please, no more freeways.

She hopes the resulting “Imagine” proposition will be a plan that provides residents with multiple choices for transportation, and said that increasing options is the way to avoid congestion, as new freeway space is limited and the Valley continues to sprawl.

MAG figures they lost a $billion in tax revenue due to the Great Recession.

“I’m telling you right now, we have more needs than funding will allow to support,” she said.

Thomas said they will use the next few years as a time to really reevaluate the future of Valley transportation. The Valley has changed since 2005 when Prop. 400 was first passed, and regional planners want to use the money for what the area needs. And according to Thomas, that will be tricky.

Give me some hints, please.

Planners may also explore the possibility of regional bus rapid transit or even implementation of a commuter rail to make it easier to travel between Valley cities.

But Imagine’s success will ultimately depend on whether Thomas and her colleagues will be able to communicate their vision to Maricopa County voters.

Now that I'm getting to know my way around, commuter rail should run from Sky Harbor down the 202 and then south along the 101 to Chandler for starters. Might as well use commuter rail west along I-10 also. Glendale Ave is prime for "enhanced" bus service to include all-door boarding, dedicated lanes (at least during peak periods), TSP and Queue Jump Lanes (as are few other corridors).

City of Phoenix is a separate topic.

[CrestedSaguaro]

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azc...amp/3474301002

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azc...amp/3474301002

AZ Central should be embarrassed to have run this. The conclusion mentioned in the headline is technically correct, but almost meaningless in the absence of context. Sure, a few billion might be freed for other uses, but even more money from regional and federal sources would vanish overnight. This piece reinforces a problem with so many news organizations. Many papers are now placing an increased emphasis on fact checking. That's good, but so often the task is assigned to a junior reporter who doesn't have enough background on the issue to understand all the nuances involved.

In other news, AZ Central has endorsed Carlos Garcia for the District 8 city council seat. Garcia tries to downplay his role in putting all light rail expansion in jeopardy with these words:

"Garcia explained that he supports light rail and that he got involved only because city hall ignored area residents and business owners in the first place. He said the effort, which was to make the extension better, has been essentially 'hijacked' by light rail opponents."

Sounds like convenient blame shifting to me. Garcia needs to acknowledge that the Frankenstein monster he helped create is out of control and outline what specific steps he'll take to kill it.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...st/3504611002/

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

AZ Central should be embarrassed to have run this. The conclusion mentioned in the headline is technically correct, but almost meaningless in the absence of context.

Hmm, is it possible you didn't read the whole piece? I read a lot of context which greatly clarifies the issue even if there's some differences at the margin.

Originally Posted by exit2lef

"Garcia explained that he supports light rail and that he got involved only because city hall ignored area residents and business owners in the first place. He said the effort, which was to make the extension better, has been essentially 'hijacked' by light rail opponents."

Sounds like convenient blame shifting to me. Garcia needs to acknowledge that the Frankenstein monster he helped create is out of control and outline what specific steps he'll take to kill it.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/opin...st/3504611002/

It's entirely likely IMO that the "Frankenstein monster" is but a paper tiger. I didn't follow his specific involvement but I welcome his current position.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

...and a nice AZ Central article putting a big hit on LRT and the upcoming vote in August. I don't know why I read AZ Central. Sigh...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azc...amp/3474301002

Did you actually read the whole piece?

Looking for their weak spots...

It also would forbid the city from funding any future light rail extensions or fixed rail, such as commuter rail or Amtrak.

At first blush voters may see the benefits and voters like to make positive decisions. But the bulk of voters don't respond to (local issues) so well if it's promoted by haters and it's even worse if we're talking about carpet bagging haters. The hate against all future rail of any kind Forever and Ever, Amen is beyond the pale.

It should be easy to separate issues. There's the South Central extension which is opposed by some neighborhood malcontents but not even a majority... and over $500 million in federal grants would be lost forever.

Then there's the anti-everything rail crowd and its forever nonsense which is clearly over-the-top. In addition to South Central all we're looking at now is the Metro Center extension and maybe I-10. Given how much has already been reallocated to roads I expect voters to be more reasonable than to fall for this extreme anti-rail craziness.

Note: No question there's a Cato Institute/Americans for Prosperity crusade promoting buses as a lever to prevent rail projects. A guy has been frequenting Denver Streetsblog and his arguments are nothing but Cato/Randal O'Toole talking points. What they especially want is to eliminate all federal support for rail. And yes, exit2lef I vigorously make him look stupid in hating on light rail since he doesn't know what he's talking about re: Denver.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Did you actually read the whole piece?

Looking for their weak spots...


At first blush voters may see the benefits and voters like to make positive decisions. But the bulk of voters don't respond to (local issues) so well if it's promoted by haters and it's even worse if we're talking about carpet bagging haters. The hate against all future rail of any kind Forever and Ever, Amen is beyond the pale.

It should be easy to separate issues. There's the South Central extension which is opposed by some neighborhood malcontents but not even a majority... and over $500 million in federal grants would be lost forever.

Then there's the anti-everything rail crowd and its forever nonsense which is clearly over-the-top. In addition to South Central all we're looking at now is the Metro Center extension and maybe I-10. Given how much has already been reallocated to roads I expect voters to be more reasonable than to fall for this extreme anti-rail craziness.

Note: No question there's a Cato Institute/Americans for Prosperity crusade promoting buses as a lever to prevent rail projects. A guy has been frequenting Denver Streetsblog and his arguments are nothing but Cato/Randal O'Toole talking points. What they especially want is to eliminate all federal support for rail. And yes, exit2lef I vigorously make him look stupid in hating on light rail since he doesn't know what he's talking about re: Denver.

Great analysis. I hope that if this doesn't get blocked on appeal, the pro light-rail absolutely frame this as a "THEY WANT TO TAKE AWAY EVERYONE'S CHOICES FOREVER" matter (which is how this is going down). We could have a reasonable conversation about balance of funding/location of rail/more support of streets if we didn't have a bazooka pointed at all of our heads.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Hmm, is it possible you didn't read the whole piece? I read a lot of context which greatly clarifies the issue even if there's some differences at the margin.

I read everything. Yes, there is some context provided later, but the headline is what most people take away, and it's extraordinarily oversimplified and exaggerated. Equally disappointing is the rating of "four stars, true." It should have been rated "two stars, partially true." While some funds may be diverted for other uses, federal and regional funds will no longer be available to Phoenix and will flow to other places.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

the headline is what most people take away, and it's extraordinarily oversimplified and exaggerated.

Ahh, I understand where you're coming from. I would have given it four stars too, though.

Consider good propaganda
Whether Streetsblog or Sean Hannity etal; they often start with a premise that is obviously true and factual. Two things to look for: how they move to making assumptions ie connect dots that shouldn't be connected starting from their factual premise(s). Equally important is what they don't say. That can take some thinking about.

If you take money previously designated for light rail and make it available to spend on other things then that's what you do. Hard to argue with simplistic if its common sense. That doesn't mean it's good policy; doesn't mean other things shouldn't be considered.

Simplistic can be highly effective. "Make America Great Again" (who can argue with that?). "Yes We Can" or "Sí se puede" and yes, he did.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

If you take money previously designated for light rail and make it available to spend on other things then that's what you do. Hard to argue with simplistic if its common sense. That doesn't mean it's good policy; doesn't mean other things shouldn't be considered.

Not at the costs of trying to get mass transit off of any future initiatives whatsoever. This isn't trying to divert money for immediate needs to roads to repair or what-not. This is just a masked anti-rail movement in it's entirety.

[combusean]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

What you suggest makes a lot of sense.

One thing that could help is the rising gas prices. I notice it; it's up about 30% since the 1st of the year. It could continue rising but who knows?

One thing that has worked in Colorado is regional bus service. Tried and failed in the past, this time it has caught on. CDOT (aka ADOT) runs buses along the east-west (I-70) and north-south (I-25) freeways. They've doubled the service and would like to expand it more but finding enough bus drivers is a problem. Similarly RTD's BRT service between Boulder and Denver has also been a Big success and more buses had to be added. What make the difference is time-efficiency with few stops and the nice coaches used with Wi-Fi on board. Denver RTD also has trouble finding bus drivers; they're currently over 100 drivers short. Not sure how this might work in metro Phoenix but the obvious appeal is bus service that is competitive ie convenient and speedy appeals to people.

I've long thought Phoenix needs express "core connector" buses that collapse the time it takes to get from one village core/activity center to the other. Local buses and even light rail for long haul trips is too slow. Eg, something that went from Deer Valley Airport to Metrocenter to the Capitol to Downtown rather than lumber around on 19th Ave all day long.

[vwwolfe]

When I was looking at light rail schedules on Valley Metro's website, it looks like light rail service will start running all night on Friday nights in May. Am I wrong about this? I've not heard that mentioned before.