Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Here you're often accused of being tempted to vote OUI,

I am??????????

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Political science is always good... at explaining the past.

Nobody thought people would vote for Brexit. They did.

So you know. Anything is impossible. It's just electrifying the campaign that matters really.

On that note: what would your kids vote you think in a 3rd referendum? Here you're often accused of being tempted to vote OUI, but what would your kids vote?

Do you think they would vote OUI out of juvenile easily-roused enthusiasm?

Or do you think they would vote NON because they are what Anglophone media portray as "detached" youths who don't care about the "old battles" of sovereignism?

I honestly have no idea how my kids would vote.

They have no anger towards "Canada" or anglophones.

They say they are both Canadian and Québécois without hesitation but will readily admit that being Canadian doesn't mean much concretely in terms of a national identity, and that Quebec and the rest of the country don't have much in common.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I am??????????

Easily 2/3 probably 80%+ of Francophone Quebecers would consider a yes vote. The economics and fact that RoC is pretty benevevolant ( Is there any minority given more rights in a democracy?) keeps the vote below the 65% needed to get to 50%+1. Eliminate either of those and the result gets tighter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Easily 2/3 probably 80%+ of Francophone Quebecers would consider a yes vote. The economics and fact that RoC is pretty benevevolant ( Is there any minority given more rights in a democracy?) keeps the vote below the 65% needed to get to 50%+1. Eliminate either of those and the result gets tighter.

Swiss francophones and Swiss italophones, off the top of my head. I am sure I might find others. Like Aaland Island Swedish speakers in Finland, there!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Easily 2/3 probably 80%+ of Francophone Quebecers would consider a yes vote. The economics and fact that RoC is pretty benevevolant ( Is there any minority given more rights in a democracy?) keeps the vote below the 65% needed to get to 50%+1. Eliminate either of those and the result gets tighter.

Even Jean Chrétien himself used to say the idea had some appeal, and that he'd have dreams that he was the hero of the Plains of Abraham who would wake up Montcalm so he could defeat Wolfe.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I honestly have no idea how my kids would vote.

They have no anger towards "Canada" or anglophones.

They say they are both Canadian and Québécois without hesitation but will readily admit that being Canadian doesn't mean much concretely in terms of a national identity, and that Quebec and the rest of the country don't have much in common.

Ca ne répond pas à la question !

OUI or NON?

It's the problem with referendums, there are only two possibles answers.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Ca ne répond pas à la question !

OUI or NON?

It's the problem with referendums, there are only two possibles answers.

C'est souvent impossible de connaître la réponse avant d'arriver à l'urne.

[thewave46]

It would be odd to call a referendum when Legault did not campaign on it for the 2022 Quebec election.

Or when there's no apparent rallying cry that seems to make it a matter for this moment in time. Laying one's political legacy on the line for it would seem foolish.

The Brexit referendum was a product of David Cameron's idiocy to silence the Brexit crowd in the Conservative Party. Oops.

Had the SNP waited for better timing, it may have won the referendum it campaigned for. It didn't. Oops.

What the kids want or don't want is irrelevant until the question is asked. Don't ask the question if you don't want the answer, goes the saying.

Referendums are generally things that tear at country's souls and are an important decision, so one does not hold them at a whim, despite the hopes of some.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Is there any minority given more rights in a democracy?

Oh yes. The Romanches in Switzerland. The German-speakers in Belgium. And probably a couple more.

When I crossed the US-Canada border (south of Vancouver), don't remember if I've mentioned this before, I addressed the Canadian immigration officer in French to test his reaction, and the reaction was... pretty bad ("we don't speak no French here, etc", said in a rude tone). I can't imagine crossing the German-Swiss border near Basel and having the German-speaking Swiss federal officer there yelling at me if I dared to address him in French. In fact not even the Dutch-speaking Belgian officers yell at us when we, foreigners, address them in French (on the other hand they greatly dislike it when their fellow Francophone Belgian countrymen address them in French, but French tourists get a free pass in general).

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Even Jean Chrétien himself used to say the idea had some appeal, and that he'd have dreams that he was the hero of the Plains of Abraham who would wake up Montcalm so he could defeat Wolfe.

Montcalm actually defeated Wolfe on that day (Wolfe even died). It's the bourgeois of Québec City who later chickened out and opened the door of the city to the Englishmen. The French officers were absolutely shocked, because it was against all the laws of wars in Europe, since the French army was not yet defeated, and two other French armies were approaching Québec City, but the bourgeois of Québec City preferred to save what remained of their houses and raise the white flag.

That being said, perhaps the bourgeois of Québec City were the wisest. Québec City could have continued to withstand a siege, perhaps in the best scenario the English would have had to leave a few weeks later due to the arrival of cold weather, but they would probably have returned with more numbers the next year and totally destroyed Québec City to the last stone. It would perhaps have been "reculer pour mieux sauter", as we say in French.

In any case the other French officers were furious at this surrender.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thewave46

It would be odd to call a referendum when Legault did not campaign on it for the 2022 Quebec election.

You mean, like David Cameron who did not campaign on a Brexit referendum in the 2015 UK general election?

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

You mean, like David Cameron who did not campaign on a Brexit referendum in the 2015 UK general election?

Um...

The Bloomberg Speech of 2013 directly states that if re-elected, the Conservatives would hold such a referendum.

Full text of the speech

"That is why I am in favour of a referendum. I believe in confronting this issue – shaping it, leading the debate. Not simply hoping a difficult situation will go away."

"And when we have negotiated that new settlement, we will give the British people a referendum with a very simple in or out choice. To stay in the EU on these new terms, or come out altogether."

"Legislation will be drafted before the next election. And if a Conservative government is elected we will introduce the enabling legislation immediately and pass it by the end of that year. And we will complete this negotiation and hold this referendum within the first half of the next parliament."

[New Brisavoine]

^^Interesting. That wasn't my recollection. Neither is it the recollection of journalists here (but I guess people tend to forget things quickly). Here the general consensus is that he called the Brexit referendum because he had just won the Scottish referendum and that emboldened him to try and defeat Euroscepticism once and for all after having defeated Scottish nationalism.

The irony is he kept Scotland but lost the EU. I wonder what's worse for England in the long term...

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Political science is always good... at explaining the past.

Nobody thought people would vote for Brexit. They did.

If you look back at the YouGov polling data from 2013, Leave was already ahead of Remain.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Oh yes. The Romanches in Switzerland. The German-speakers in Belgium. And probably a couple more.

When I crossed the US-Canada border (south of Vancouver), don't remember if I've mentioned this before, I addressed the Canadian immigration officer in French to test his reaction, and the reaction was... pretty bad ("we don't speak no French here, etc", said in a rude tone). I can't imagine crossing the German-Swiss border near Basel and having the German-speaking Swiss federal officer there yelling at me if I dared to address him in French. In fact not even the Dutch-speaking Belgian officers yell at us when we, foreigners, address them in French (on the other hand they greatly dislike it when their fellow Francophone Belgian countrymen address them in French, but French tourists get a free pass in general).

A relative of mine used to be a CBSA officer at the Peace Arch, 30+ years ago. He didn't speak a word of French to my knowledge.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

A relative of mine used to be a CBSA officer at the Peace Arch, 30+ years ago. He didn't speak a word of French to my knowledge.

How is it relevant?

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Swiss francophones and Swiss italophones, off the top of my head. I am sure I might find others. Like Aaland Island Swedish speakers in Finland, there!

Quebec anglophones?

[Kilgore Trout]

Today I'm interested to discover that I might be more inclined to vote yes in a Quebec referendum than Acajack

I have no real love for Canada. I love Montreal, and I'm excited by the idea of creating a new country from scratch. But I'm also deeply uninterested in theoretics and abstract notions so we'll see if and when it ever happens.

[urbandreamer]

True, Quebec feels more Canadian than Canada these days. I would vote yes too.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Quebec anglophones?

Ta-dam, dam!