Halifax Stadium Discussion

[elly63]

If Halifax is going to build a stadium along the lines of THF, then this is a must.

Edmonton Eskimos donate to purchase temporary dome for Commonwealth Stadium
Terry Jones Edmonton Journal November 16, 2018

A winter dome for the home of the Eskimos is one significant step closer to becoming the legacy of Edmonton playing host to the 106th Grey Cup.

The legacy of the already guaranteed-to-be-sensationally-successful Grey Cup, your correspondent has learned, will be $500,000 toward the purchase of a temporary dome to erect over the playing surface of Commonwealth Stadium annually during winter months.

“Yes, we believe in the importance of a Grey Cup legacy project. We have earmarked $500,000 for the legacy project as a financial contribution to the project estimated to cost $2.5 to $3 million,” said Rhodes.

“The benefit would be to allow amateur football and other amateur sports access to a facility during the winter months. Equipping the stadium for winter use will maximize use of the facility during the entire 12-month calendar and provide the community with added recreation space.

“And in terms of legacy, there would be another benefit. It would help our chances of being awarded hosting rights to a future Mark’s CFL Week, something we want dearly for our city,” he said of the relatively new off-season event that brings 60 CFL stars to a city for a TSN video shoot, fan festival, Spirit of Edmonton-style party event and media “car wash” interviewing sessions with player interactions with fans throughout the week. It concludes with the CFL Combine player testing of draft eligible players for which the dome over the field would be perfect.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I looked through the thread but didn't see this posted anywhere, unless I missed it.

The stadium proposal has revived talk of a fast ferry in Halifax — but is it a marketing ploy or the best hope for commuters?

No matter what Halifax would be spending on the stadium itself, chief administrative officer Jacques Dubé told councillors before their vote on Tuesday that there’d be a number of other infrastructure costs: water, sewer, roads, parks and transit.

“There’s maybe an opportunity to look at a high-speed ferry out of Bedford,” Dubé said. “There may be additional opportunities to apply additional ferry service across one part of the harbour to the other side of the harbour to the actual site.”

Ken Wilson, president of the Amalgamated Transit Union Local 508, the union representing bus and ferry operators in Halifax, has been advocating for a third ferry route for years.

Before Dubé even mentioned the ferry on Tuesday, Wilson had tweeted about it.

“Shannon Park is a great place for a CFL stadium. Direct access to Halifax (Harbour) and Bedford Basin,” he wrote Monday morning, adding the hashtag #halifaxferries.

Wilson envisions a three-point connection: The ferry would depart from Convoy Run in Bedford, stop in Shannon Park and continue to downtown Halifax.

“In my opinion, it would kill the train discussion because it could remove a lot of the traffic from the Bedford Highway using the ferry and the harbour that we already have,” he said in an interview.

Rather than using so-called fast or high-speed ferries, an expensive idea the municipality has batted around since 2000, Wilson suggested Halifax Transit could use the same ferries it does now.

“The regular ferries we have today, they have been proven to be one of the best ferries ever built for manoeuvrability, capability, all different weathers. I think that’s the route to go, really,” he said.

[Colin May]

The ferries carry 390 passengers and are limited to 9 knots.
The best solution is to move some public sector offices off the peninsula and increase the amount of housing for families who would like to live on the peninsula.

[Northend Guy]

Somewhat related - I was talking to a friend about this - and tbh, I have no clue about the feasibility of something like this, and also whether the tailgate party culture would go for this, but here goes.

Comments have been made about people not wanting to use transit to get to & from the stadium & traffic issues getting to & from the site & if you used transit you don't have the option for a tailgate party, etc.

I wonder if a 'booze cruise' style ferry service could be a thing? A Maritime Tailgate party, if you will. That's a bit juxtaposed, I know (ferry with booze cruise), but if on game days you basically had a ferry doing round trips from DT to SP to Bedford & back, could it work? Have a lower deck for non-imbibing patrons. Have a segregated licensed deck for the tailgaters. Have the ferry running round trips for 3-4 hours before the game & into the night after. Make the trip free or very cheap & make the money on booze.

Obviously would have to be privately run - but why not? (and again - i have no clue. Maybe there is a very good reason why not.)

And just in case this gets to be a thing...my idea...give me a cut

[CPMatt]

They actually do something like that at University of Tennessee football games. The tailgate (or sailgate) is along the river by the stadium and they get 150 - 200 boats that tie up by the river to tailgate. They have their own association called the Vol Navy.

Not sure how many people it would account for but you could definitely see private boats driving to the game to tailgate in similar manner, much like they do if there's fireworks or a big concert at Alderney or something.

http://volnavyboaters.com/

[ILoveHalifax]

Originally Posted by CPMatt

They actually do something like that at University of Tennessee football games. The tailgate (or sailgate) is along the river by the stadium and they get 150 - 200 boats that tie up by the river to tailgate. They have their own association called the Vol Navy.

Not sure how many people it would account for but you could definitely see private boats driving to the game to tailgate in similar manner, much like they do if there's fireworks or a big concert at Alderney or something.

http://volnavyboaters.com/

I used to live in Fort Lauderdale and they have an annual Holiday Boat Parade that attracts massive audience - many arrive by land but the best way is to arrive is by boat and tie up along the intracoastal - I have been lucky enough to have been on 2 different boats - could be a real attraction for football games in Halifax

[elly63]

Growing cities can’t be timid, Halifax mayor tells chamber of commerce
Keith Doucette, Canadian Press November 22, 2018

Halifax Mayor Mike Savage says cities with an intent to grow need to shed timidity and understand that the biggest cause of failure is often risk aversion.

In his annual state-of-the-municipality speech Thursday, Savage told the Halifax Chamber of Commerce that “more can be lost by avoiding opportunity than by falling short of ambitious goals.”

“And I believe this leads not only to stronger economic development but to stronger social development as a city as well.”

...

According to Statistics Canada figures, the city’s population grew by about 15,000 people over the past two years, Savage said. But he said a look inside those numbers reveals his favourite statistic.

“Greater than half of our net population growth is in the 25 to 39-year-old category, the prime age for establishing businesses, careers and families.”

...

One potentially contentious issue that Savage avoided in his speech was the push for a new stadium from the business group hoping to land a CFL franchise.

Savage was later asked by reporters about the omission in a speech that cautioned against risk aversion.

He said he left the issue out because the city doesn’t know yet what kind of opportunity exists.

“It could be an opportunity but we don’t know because we haven’t seen the numbers,” said Savage.

“What is good about it is that for the first time ever a private sector led organization is prepared to put some of their own money into building a stadium for us … but we have to decide whether it’s the right thing or not.”

[c-way-dude]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/grey-cup-game-means-big-money-for-business-1.4915173

[someone123]

Originally Posted by elly63

Savage was later asked by reporters about the omission in a speech that cautioned against risk aversion.

Halifax is way too timid. Cogswell is one good example of this. Council opted for it to be a revenue neutral land development scheme; the city might have gotten a lot more mileage had the original tone been that this was a huge opportunity to do something special with significant investment. What would Cogswell look like with $500M? $1B? Those might not be practical numbers but I'm not sure the city even evaluated doing anything but the bare minimum; if it did that never showed up in the plans.

Transportation is similar. What's a major transportation project in the city built after 2000? There are all kinds of bad areas like the Armdale Rotary or Bedford highway but they haven't really changed much in decades.

You might argue that it doesn't matter much since people can have short commutes in Halifax if they want but they could be even shorter and more convenient. The prevailing mindset seems to be "how can we keep things good enough", not "how can we do things as well as possible".

The stadium fits the same pattern. Politicians are afraid to touch it and there hasn't been much discussion of what it could be like as a major piece of civic infrastructure lasting 30 or 50 years. Instead 90% of the debate is around the cost and how to minimize it.

[Colin May]

Originally Posted by someone123

Halifax is way too timid. Cogswell is one good example of this. Council opted for it to be a revenue neutral land development scheme; the city might have gotten a lot more mileage had the original tone been that this was a huge opportunity to do something special with significant investment.

Politicians are afraid to touch it and there hasn't been much discussion of what it could be like as a major piece of civic infrastructure lasting 30 or 50 years. Instead 90% of the debate is around the cost and how to minimize it.

If you had an understanding of the fiscal reality of HRM your post would be quite different.
HRM is a high cost employer. Salaries and benefits are more generous than any other employer in Atlantic Canada. The pension plan is more generous than almost any other employer in Canada.
Considering the current state of the stock market the brains trust at HRM must be on their knees praying for a significant uptick in the stock market.
On the assumption you have an understanding of pension plans I recommend you read the HRM pension plan minutes - google is your friend.
And then read the most recent actuarial report.
After that read the quarterly finance reports, particularly the revenue section.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Colin May

If you had an understanding of the fiscal reality of HRM your post would be quite different.

The condescension doesn't help you to get your point across.

The fiscal reality is irrelevant as long as the city is solvent and can borrow money, which is the case. The relevant calculation is whether or not a project is expected to yield a net return economically (crucially not merely in terms of direct revenue but indirect as well). If a project yields a net return it's worth doing regardless of what the salaries or pensions are.

It's comparatively easy for projects to yield a net return when the federal government is footing a portion of the bill. HRM should be trying to leverage its investments to get as much federal and provincial money as possible. This creates a virtuous cycle of greater local economic vibrancy which in turn leads to rising property assessments and the like. Traditionally HRM has failed horribly at this, and a lot of good projects have been killed off in the planning stages over cost fears before they were even well understood. The public clearly is too risk averse too because there is almost no tolerance for failure when the city tries out anything new. People demand that each individual project must succeed. The hidden cost of this strategy is that you can't try anything that is higher risk with a higher return.

An abstract analogy for why debt sometimes doesn't matter: imagine you're $2M in debt, and you have a chance to borrow $1M with an expected net return of $1M (maybe you'll get $0, maybe you'll get $5M, but on average you'll get $2M, pay off your $1M, and get $1M extra). Do you borrow the money? Yes. Does it matter if you are $2M, $20M, or $0 in debt? No.

[Colin May]

HRM must get permission from the province for all borrowing.
HRM must file multi-year capital budgets with the province.
HRM debt is provincial debt.
Interest rates are rising.
I would be interested in which projects HRM has been averse to.
Commercial assessments are taking a hit and 2019 looks like a bad year for retail across the developed world. HRM is not immune and any decline in retail translates into lower commercial assessments.

[TheNovaScotian]

Originally Posted by Colin May

HRM must get permission from the province for all borrowing.
HRM must file multi-year capital budgets with the province.
HRM debt is provincial debt.
Interest rates are rising.
I would be interested in which projects HRM has been averse to.
Commercial assessments are taking a hit and 2019 looks like a bad year for retail across the developed world. HRM is not immune and any decline in retail translates into lower commercial assessments.

I know it rains often here in Halifax, but does it always rain over the May residence?
I wouldn't plan the parade down your street, that's for sure.

[Keith P.]

Colin is quite correct about the sorry state of the HRM pension plan. They bungled a significant portion of the assets about 10 years ago when the trustees took their eye off the ball and now it is woefully underfunded, almost as bad as the Teacher's Pension Plan. Yet it still pays out lavish benefits that in some cases mean the recipients take home as much or more from their pension than they did when they were employed. It will be an exploding cigar for HRM taxpayers one of these days.

That is saying something when one considers the other aspect of Colin's post, the reality than HRM pays too much for a great many positions, and that the overall size of their bureaucracy is now badly bloated thanks to a hiring binge over the last few years when the money from all the new growth started rolling in. HRM an an entity is addicted to spending because of all the revenue they have been getting from the growth of the tax base despite the deflection Mayor Mike tried to do with the platitudes included yesterday in his speech. In fact Council has been drooling in anticipation of an end to the provincial cap on property assessments as they know that means a huge windfall in revenue for them despite hollow promises that they will reduce the tax *rate* which as we know is the oldest sleight-of-hand trick in the municipal politician handbook. We will then see even more wasteful operational spending than we have until now, a chilling prospect which is quite mind-boggling. They are not making any decisions whatsoever to exercise restraint in operational spending and once the gravy train inevitably ends there will be a harsh reckoning.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

The fiscal reality is irrelevant as long as the city is solvent and can borrow money, which is the case. The relevant calculation is whether or not a project is expected to yield a net return economically (crucially not merely in terms of direct revenue but indirect as well). If a project yields a net return it's worth doing regardless of what the salaries or pensions are.

As a general rule all arenas and stadia are money pits.

I make this comment even though I am supportive of the concept of a new stadium in Halifax, and for a CFL team in the Maritimes.

The Avenir Centre in Moncton will be a money pit too, especially since it was built only by the city of Moncton (pop 71,000) and not by the tri-communities of Moncton, Dieppe & Riverview (pop 120,000). I'm sure our property tax rate will take a hit (although this hasn't happened yet).

Despite this, I fully support the Avenir Centre as it will significantly boost development in downtown Moncton. I'm aware of four significant property consolidations that have occurred in the Avenir Centre neighbourhood in the last few years. New developments are in the planning stages with assessments in the hundreds of millions of dollars. If this all comes to fruition, then the Avenir Centre will have been a good investment, helping to make the city both more livable and economically viable.

Will a stadium in Halifax have the same effect? I don't know, but I do believe that arenas (in general) are more versatile than stadia and can attract more events in the long run. Also, the location of this stadium is well outside the downtown core, and I can't imagine that a whole lot of ancillary development will occur. The Avenir Centre therefore will likely be a better investment for Moncton than a new stadium would be in (that part of) Halifax.

A professional football team however will by definition make Halifax a "big league city", and bring a higher profile to the city than it might otherwise have. This is worth something. Also, a professional sports team will go a ways towards making the population feel better about themselves and where they live. Finally, HRM is a large and fairly wealthy municipality. I firmly believe that Halifax has the financial resources to make this happen. This should be less of a stretch for Halifax than the Avenir Centre was for Moncton.

[JET]

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/m...-cfl-stadium-may-cost-50-million-259145/
I was sort of stadium neutral until I heard that it could cost $50,000,000 to move the power lines for the stadium.
Just to confirm it doesn't rain any more over the May house than it does anywhere else, and is often quite sunny there.

[someone123]

Sure. My argument isn't that a stadium is going to be a money generator and people will have different opinions on the value of it as a piece of infrastructure. But I don't think it's right either to start launching into rants about pension obligations any time any spending whatsoever comes up, which is pretty much the M.O. of Colin, 95% of Herald letter writers, etc.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JET

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/m...-cfl-stadium-may-cost-50-million-259145/
I was sort of stadium neutral until I heard that it could cost $50,000,000 to move the power lines for the stadium.
Just to confirm it doesn't rain any more over the May house than it does anywhere else, and is often quite sunny there.

This article is very speculative and negative. They say in the article that this is only a rumour at this point, and the $50M number appears made up (multiply $20-30M cost for a different project 15 years ago by arbitrary factor).

An example of what I am talking about. Many people in Halifax don't even wait for planning work to be done before imagining extra costs and complaining that they will be unaffordable.

Thankfully not all humans think this way. If they did we would probably have died out or would still be foraging for berries and roots in the woods somewhere (on rare days when we didn't see our shadow and go into hiding).

[EpicPonyTime]

Originally Posted by JET

https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/m...-cfl-stadium-may-cost-50-million-259145/
I was sort of stadium neutral until I heard that it could cost $50,000,000 to move the power lines for the stadium.
Just to confirm it doesn't rain any more over the May house than it does anywhere else, and is often quite sunny there.

This was discussed earlier in this thread. One of the City Councillors came out and said this rumour is 100% fake.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by JET

Just to confirm it doesn't rain any more over the May house than it does anywhere else, and is often quite sunny there.

Not from where I'm sitting.