Metro Phoenix Transit/Transportation Developments

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

The outcome is disappointing but not entirely surprising. Building a Better Phoenix hired Kory Langhofer, a skilled and experienced attorney in elections law, even if I consider him to be on the wrong side of almost every issue he touches.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...ue/3446767002/

The FTA this week also gave Seattle's Sound Transit's Federal Way light rail extension next-step approval. The FTA grant would be for $790 million or 25% of the projected $3.1 billion project cost. At 7.8 miles with only three stations this come to a lovely $397 million per mile. That compares to the South Central line at ~$140 million per mile.

Hopefully, voters make the smart decision in August.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

The FTA this week also gave Seattle's Sound Transit's Federal Way light rail extension next-step approval. The FTA grant would be for $790 million or 25% of the projected $3.1 billion project cost. At 7.8 miles with only three stations this come to a lovely $397 million per mile. That compares to the South Central line at ~$140 million per mile.

Hopefully, voters make the smart decision in August.

I don't know the particulars of the extension to Federal Way, but Seattle's light rail runs underground or on an elevated track along much of its route. That's necessary because of the city's numerous hills and bodies of water. It has the effect of increasing costs per mile, but it also makes the system faster and gives it more a of a big-city subway feel. Phoenix opened its starter line one year before Seattle, which followed in 2009. Both systems then opened their first extensions in 2016. For a while, it seemed like the two cities were proceeding with rail investment at essentially the same pace; however, Seattle has clearly taken the lead now, and if this vote doesn't go well, the contrast will become even more striking.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Hopefully, voters make the smart decision in August.

These kind of things tend to happen in trends and there has been a trend of negative publicity with LRT over the last few months. Voters tend to remember bad publicity over good publicity and I am fearful of a different outcome on this. Having 2 future extensions getting put on hold, the South Central close to getting axed all-together and all of the other negative news (reports of homelessness on the trains, crime increases at 19th Ave/Dunlap, etc..) just needs to go away. We could really use some good positive news about LRT before the next ballot that will be fresh in voters minds at the polls.

[exit2lef]

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema...ars-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema...ars-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

So can the project break ground before it gets to the ballot or does the court loss put the project temporarily put on hold until it goes to the polls again?

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema...ars-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

I hope the city goes ahead and builds this link. Let these hucksters be put beneath the headstone on the grave they dug.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I don't know the particulars of the extension to Federal Way, but Seattle's light rail runs underground or on an elevated track along much of its route. That's necessary because of the city's numerous hills and bodies of water. It has the effect of increasing costs per mile, but it also makes the system faster and gives it more a of a big-city subway feel. Phoenix opened its starter line one year before Seattle, which followed in 2009. Both systems then opened their first extensions in 2016. For a while, it seemed like the two cities were proceeding with rail investment at essentially the same pace; however, Seattle has clearly taken the lead now, and if this vote doesn't go well, the contrast will become even more striking.

Very true about meeting topographical challenges; also true that Seattle like to go First Class. The Federal Way extension has a lot of elevated sections; it follows I-5 for the most part.

The project you're likely thinking of was the University extension which had a 4-mile tunnel and was worth the effort as ridership doubled over the next year.

In February they opened a new tunnel for cars that replaced a viaduct. Two miles at close to $4 billion costs.

The 4.3 mile, $1.9 billion Northgate extension from downtown will have 3.5 miles of twin tunnels.

Their 14-mile, $3.7 billion East Link extension to Bellevue under construction does have a 1,985-foot tunnel.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

So can the project break ground before it gets to the ballot or does the court loss put the project temporarily put on hold until it goes to the polls again?

This is an engineering approval not a full funding grant but that can now be assumed to follow. Even if they broke ground that wouldn't prevent the project from being stopped depending on legal stuff... I have no clue.

Originally Posted by exit2lef

This announcement just came out from Senator Sinema's office:

https://www.sinema.senate.gov/sinema...ars-key-hurdle

Apparently, the FTA has given certain work essential for the South Central extension a green light, even as we get closer to a vote designed to kill the project.

Looks like the same next-step as what Seattle received including up to a $530 million grant.

I feel good about the pending vote; there's a very good case to be made. Plus, many voters can now see improvements to their neighborhood streets and it can be explained how more of that is coming.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TakeFive

Even if they broke ground that wouldn't prevent the project from being stopped depending on legal stuff... I have no clue.

I suspect that if the South Central extension breaks ground before the vote occurs and if the vote is to curtail light rail expansion, there will then be a messy court battle over the meaning of "new" vs. "existing" light rail. A judge would have to decide which label fits for a project already under construction. Scott Smith, CEO of Valley Metro, indicated during a recent presentation that there might even be court battles over capital spending necessary to keep the existing line functioning.

[DesertRay]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

I suspect that if the South Central extension breaks ground before the vote occurs and if the vote is to curtail light rail expansion, there will then be a messy court battle over the meaning of "new" vs. "existing" light rail. A judge would have to decide which label fits for a project already under construction. Scott Smith, CEO of Valley Metro, indicated during a recent presentation that there might even be court battles over capital spending necessary to keep the existing line functioning.

Part of me hopes that if people vote for this, the entire tax goes completely away in a court case, and that everyone has to beg for money for roads again. This is beyond stupid.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by DesertRay

Part of me hopes that if people vote for this, the entire tax goes completely away in a court case, and that everyone has to beg for money for roads again. This is beyond stupid.

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times. Talk about wasting taxpayer money and trying to stick it in the face of the people that voted for this. Building a Better Phoenix should be a shamed of themselves and I hope after this time, they drift off quietly into the dust and forgotten.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times.

Thrice!

Phoenix voters have said yes to light rail all these times:

March 2000 -- Transit 2000, the original city tax for light rail and expanded bus service
November 2004 -- Proposition 400, the countywide tax that allocates funds for a mix of rail, bus, and roads
August 2015 -- Proposition 104, aka Transit 2050, the city tax that extends and increases the Transit 2000 revenue to provide a stable funding source long into the future

Of course, rail opponents will claim that rail by itself has never been subject to a pure, unbundled up-or-down vote. They're technically correct, but neither have street improvements or bus service. Different modes of transport are typically bundled in order to come with an optimal mix that balances priorities. What's really toxic about the Building a Better Phoenix initiative is that it doesn't just unbundle transportation funding, it creates a zero-sum game in which one mode is unnecessarily pitted against another.

[Sun Belt]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

Thrice!

Phoenix voters have said yes to light rail all these times:

March 2000 -- Transit 2000, the original city tax for light rail and expanded bus service
November 2004 -- Proposition 400, the countywide tax that allocates funds for a mix of rail, bus, and roads
August 2015 -- Proposition 104, aka Transit 2050, the city tax that extends and increases the Transit 2000 revenue to provide a stable funding source long into the future

Of course, rail opponents will claim that rail by itself has never been subject to a pure, unbundled up-or-down vote. They're technically correct, but neither have street improvements or bus service. Different modes of transport are typically bundled in order to come with an optimal mix that balances priorities. What's really toxic about the Building a Better Phoenix initiative is that it doesn't just unbundle transportation funding, it creates a zero-sum game in which one mode is unnecessarily pitted against another.

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

Also, there is a ton of pavement restoration going on around my area. Building a Better Phoenix is basically inflating the streets issue by making it sound like no is street-work is getting done anywhere. Right now Cave Creek, Thunderbird, 19th Ave and a few others are all being resurfaced. I had to do do a lot of dodging around while driving around over the weekend. Yea, the city might be behind on street resurfacing, but it IS doing it. I hate the misinformation Build a Better Phoenix is laying out there.

[TakeFive]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

It's just stupid that we need to vote on something that was already voted on twice and passed both times. Talk about wasting taxpayer money and trying to stick it in the face of the people that voted for this. Building a Better Phoenix should be a shamed of themselves and I hope after this time, they drift off quietly into the dust and forgotten.

There is no shame in politics. Our daily tweet storm establishes that.

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

No reason why voters shouldn't be allowed to change their mind. Under different circumstances this could be a very good thing.

Vegas nixes light rail
Last week RTC decided to go with BRT instead of light rail since it was 35% of the light rail cost. As much as I support BRT, in this case this appeared to be an ideal light rail corridor.

The recent public comment period brought in 759 comments: 72 percent in favor of light rail, 13 percent preferring bus rapid transit, and 4 percent supporting either light rail or bus rapid transit. Favoring light rail were members of the business community who argued it would spawn more development than any bus ever could, and residents who felt light rail would help bring Las Vegas to the modern age.

The reasoning of the RTC Board sounded like a conservative manifesto. They did rightly point out that costs to operate light rail would run $13.3 million per year whereas BRT is projected to cost $8.3 million. Light rail is definitely more expensive to operate and maintain.

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Also, there is a ton of pavement restoration going on around my area. Building a Better Phoenix is basically inflating the streets issue by making it sound like no is street-work is getting done anywhere. Right now Cave Creek, Thunderbird, 19th Ave and a few others are all being resurfaced. I had to do do a lot of dodging around while driving around over the weekend. Yea, the city might be behind on street resurfacing, but it IS doing it. I hate the misinformation Build a Better Phoenix is laying out there.

Ran into some other streets yesterday as well. Picked up a rider in Sunnyslope headed down to Cammelback to enjoy some jazz and jambalaya who also mentioned all the road work including on her way to work in Scottsdale. It's spreading like a virus.

[TakeFive]

Speaking of ride-sharing

I picked up a nice young chap off of Cave Creek and Pinnacle Peak Roads who had spent the day with his gf. He lives at the Catholic Manor right off Black Canyon near McDowell and gf's mom paid the tab. After dropping him off, somehow I ended up on Grand Ave going the wrong way (from what I wanted). Been so long since I've been in the specific area I was 'lost' (it was very dark) but I did enjoy what they've done along the way. Ended up taking 3rd ave north through Willo; even at night it was obviously a cool area.

Then there's the occasional most interesting trips. Picked up a rider near Indian School and 36th street. Elder gal who claimed she also did some Uber driving at Sky Harbor. Wanted to make a Walgreen's run so I showed her how to add - create a round trip in the app. Said she had a bad day so I asked what happened; said her son-in-law was killed... Oh my, that is a bad day; except she didn't seem too concerned over his loss but her daughter had her car at the time and the police impounded the car. An so that ends my 'as the world turns' for a Sunday.

[muertecaza]

At the City Council meeting Wednesday, the Council will vote on directing staff to analyze and provide recommendations on accelerating the timeline for the Capitol/I-10 light rail extension. Mendoza, Nowakowski and Williams signed on to the letter putting it on the agenda, and described the extension as making a "significant difference" for westside residents.

Hopefully between this and the progress in federal funding for the South Central extension, there can be some positive momentum that RonnieFoos rightly noted Valley Metro has been lacking.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Sun Belt

I saw your post in the Light Rail Boom thread.

How in the heck is this allowed? What I hate is when voters have clearly spoken and then along comes some entity/group that says, "we don't care what voters want, we're going to have it our way because we think we know better".

Arizona and most of its cities are generous with allowances for citizen initiatives. It's an outgrowth of the state constitution being written in the progressive era. For the most part, I think that's good. Recently, that feature has allowed citizen-led efforts to raise the minimum wage when the state legislature wouldn't, and it has allowed voters to thwart an expansion of vouchers by the legislature for private school attendance. It's failing, though, in allowing an outspoken minority and an unholy alliance of the far left and the far right to potentially undo the results of three prior elections, creating huge uncertainty in the planning and FTA funding processes.

[TAZ4ate0]

Originally Posted by exit2lef

It's failing, though, in allowing an outspoken minority and an unholy alliance of the far left and the far right to potentially undo the results of three prior elections, creating huge uncertainty in the planning and FTA funding processes.

True. Why are we putting items to vote yet again that was already approved by majority vote already. The majority spoke, and it ticks me off that special interest groups and lobbyists are not satisfied.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by TAZ4ate0

True. Why are we putting items to vote yet again that was already approved by majority vote already. The majority spoke, and it ticks me off that special interest groups and lobbyists are not satisfied.

I should add that the although supporters of this initiative claim there has never been a straight up-or-down vote on light rail alone, the Building a Better Phoenix doesn't offer that scenario. A straight up-or-down vote would simply ask Phoenix voters if they wish to continue to pay the tax to fund light rail expansion. If they choose not to expand light rail, then the tax associated with it should go away. Instead, Building a Better Phoenix doesn't question the underlying tax and simply proposes reallocating it for street repairs.