National Victims of Communism Memorial | Completed

[danishh]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

This monument is a joke, and only ever stood a chance of getting built because Stephen Harper wanted to stick it right in front of the Supreme Court in a royal f*** you to Ottawa.

it was actually a royal pirouette behind the back of the recently deceased Pierre Elliott Trudeau, for whom the new Justice building in that location was slated to be named.

[headhorse]

very normal country to build a monument to nazis

[Acajack]

My guess is that any post-Harper government will drag its feet on this one in the hopes that eventually something like rare striped chorus frogs will be found on the site, and the project will have to be abandoned as a result.

[zzptichka]

After the originally proposed concrete monstrosity I actually don't mind the final winning design.
Pretty sure the author conceived it as an art piece without any communism or even memorial connotation long before the competition and was able to sell it to its backers and NCC after they were forced away from the SCC grounds.
It has some clever sun calendar features that would be interesting to explore assuming they don't screw it up. IMO it's appropriate for the park all things considered.

• Video Link

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by CityTech

These kinds of monuments suck the life out of their surroundings. Monuments should be integrated into the urban fabric. Smaller and more intimate.

There is no life in that location to suck ...

[rondon]

WWII was all about what color the gates of the concentration camps will look like: red or brown? The Russians turned right away german concentration camps to their own, like Buchenwald and continued to kill people there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-eVls48xE

[rondon]

Only in one small region of Kolyma Gulag 3 million people died........3 million!! And Stalin had hundreds of those sites all over soviet union and Europe. Only starting with letter "A" he had more then 20 concentration camps.

[headhorse]

making up numbers doesn't make your case look very strong

Robert Conquest, author of The Great Terror, now admits that his original estimate of three million victims was far too high. In his article Death Tolls for the Man-made Megadeaths of the 20th Century,[25] Matthew White estimates the number of those who died at 500,000. In Stalin's Slave Ships, Martin Bollinger undertakes a careful analysis of the number of prisoners who could have been transported by ship to Magadan between 1932 and 1953 (some 900,000) and the probable number of deaths each year (averaging 27%). This produces figures significantly below earlier estimates but, as the author emphasizes, his calculations are by no means definitive. In addition to the number of deaths, the dreadful conditions of the camps and the hardships experienced by the prisoners over the years need to be taken into account. In his review[26] of Bollinger's book, Norman Polmar refers to 130,000 victims who died at Kolyma. As Bollinger reports in his book, the 3,000,000 estimate originated with the CIA in the 1950s and appears to be a flawed estimate. This number is also estimated by the last survivors.

the most recent number is around 130 000 dead, mostly during the war due to lack of rations not being used on prisoners and facist aligned prisoners trying to rebel

[headhorse]

I'm also glad you linked that History channel video. did you know the History channel was started by a known facist and supporter of the nazi's, William Hearst?

By 1932, Hearst was publishing articles by Adolf Hitler, whom Hearst admired for keeping Germany out of, as Hitler put it in a Hearst paper, “the beckoning arms of Bolshevism.” Hitler instead promoted a transcendent idea of nationalism—putting Germany first—and, by organizing devoted nationalist followers to threaten and beat up leftists, Hitler would soon destroy class-based politics in his country. Increasingly, Hearst wanted to see something similar happen in the United States.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc...erica-first-its-nationalist-edge/481497/

and guess who he started it with? another known facist: https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2...-nazi-the-fascist-history-of-disney.html

maybe you shouldn't trust what this guy (or his business ventures) says about communism and the soviet union

[headhorse]

Originally Posted by rondon

WWII was all about what color the gates of the concentration camps will look like: red or brown? The Russians turned right away german concentration camps to their own, like Buchenwald and continued to kill people there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rp-eVls48xE

also this equating of soviet to german camps is holocaust denial

[Geographer]

A monument to the victims of communist is relevant to modern Canada. There are many people who forgot or did not learn about the Holodomor, Stalin's Great Purge, the Red Terrors around the world, Mao's Great Leap Forward, Mao's Cultural Revolution, or the Khmer Rouge genocide in Cambodia, to name a few. There is a communist party of Canada. Many people think Lenin, Trotsky, Mao, and Castro are great leaders. Some people think the hammer and sickle are fashionable. Many people think communism is cool.

There are people on this very thread on SkyscraperPage that minimize and deny the crimes and evils of communist government and make a morally relativistic argument that communist is no worse than capitalism. There are people on this very thread who play the "What about ___?" game to deflect from the death toll and human suffering from communism.

Communist governments are still in power in China, Cuba, North Korea, and a few other countries. It is a totalitarian ideology that is present in 2019. That is why this monument is helpful to Canadians. It is not only about the past but education about the present and a warning for the future. After the collapse of the Soviet Union most people in the West assumed that liberal democracy had proved itself as the superior ideology to which other government would eventually adopt. The last ten years has strongly shaken that assumption and it's time to remind people of why liberal democracy is superior to communism.

[CityTech]

^ The communist regimes are a sad story, but it's a story that fundamentally belongs to foreign countries, and specific ethnic groups within Canada, rather than being fundamental to Canada as a whole. The Holocaust is like that too. Hence why I think the old communist memorial plan for a huge ass thing right on the Parliamentary lawn, as well as the holocaust monument as this massive structure, are both bad ideas. I think both monuments should exist in the city, but as small scale monuments, ideally located in areas with specific relevance to the ethnic communities associated. For example, the Holocaust one should have been located in the eastern (ie. east of King Edward) part of Rideau Street, as that area was the historic focal point of Ottawa's Jewish community.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by headhorse

also this equating of soviet to german camps is holocaust denial

Is this a serious comment?

Canada is a country of immigrants and WW2 and the subsequent Communist totalitarian governments led to multiple waves of immigration that have shaped the country. Is this too much money and real estate to note that?

[Radster]

Originally Posted by CityTech

^ The communist regimes are a sad story, but it's a story that fundamentally belongs to foreign countries, and specific ethnic groups within Canada, rather than being fundamental to Canada as a whole. The Holocaust is like that too. Hence why I think the old communist memorial plan for a huge ass thing right on the Parliamentary lawn, as well as the holocaust monument as this massive structure, are both bad ideas. I think both monuments should exist in the city, but as small scale monuments, ideally located in areas with specific relevance to the ethnic communities associated. For example, the Holocaust one should have been located in the eastern (ie. east of King Edward) part of Rideau Street, as that area was the historic focal point of Ottawa's Jewish community.

I disagree, it belongs by the war museum. Holocaust is NOT just about Jewish deaths and struggle in WWII, but sadly, this is what it has turned out to be, proof is your comment.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Radster

I have yet to visit the Holocaust memorial, but I am wondering, does it mention all the other non-Jewish groups that were also slaughtered by the Nazis during WWII and considered part of the Holocaust? ie. handicapped, homosexuals, Roma/Gypsies, Jehovas, Poles, etc.?

It does, but it's an afterthought basically in a footnote.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Arcologist

This monument is a joke, and only ever stood a chance of getting built because Stephen Harper wanted to stick it right in front of the Supreme Court in a royal f*** you to Ottawa.

Harper is still the PM?

[danishh]

i tend to agree with CityTech's point of view, but the time for these arguments is over in relation to this monument and the holocaust one. The holocaust one is built. This one is being built. We saved the Judicial triad location. Time to move on.

I just hope this gets done quickly. I've got a few minutes of pedestrian detour on my way to and from work with this construction.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by McKellarDweller

It's my unpopular opinion that monuments like this one that serve no practical, functional use should be 100% financed and maintained with private funds, with not a single public dime.

If taxpayers had to fund this kind of project directly themselves, it wouldn't happen, and a large portion of us would have a few extra dollars in our retirement funds.

I disagree slightly in that I don't think we should be permitting these monuments EVEN IF they're financed and maintained with private funds.

We're putting a multi-billion dollar wager down that we can make a go of Lebreton flats and what does the NCC and the federal government do? They surround it on all sides with their pet vanity projects.

If anything ever does get built at Lebreton, I can just see how much worse it's going to end up being as a result of this rubbish. Nothing says a "fun night out seeing the Sens or at some other performance venue" like the holocaust and victims of communism.

[lrt's friend]

I don't think any of us really understand the horrors that were inflicted on the civilian populations at the end of World War II by the Red Army as well as during the years immediately following. While the west was intent on rebuilding West Germany and the rest of western Europe, the east faced forced migrations, pillaging and worse. I visited Poland in 2015 and got a taste of the real history of the area during that era. Even though my ancestors are from the area, no relatives remain and their burial grounds were desecrated.

[passwordisnt123]

Originally Posted by Geographer

A monument to the victims of communist is relevant to modern Canada.

Sorry, can you explain to me why a monument to somebody else's atrocities is relevant to Canada? I come from the school of thought that it's easier to point the finger at other people's crimes than to critically self-examine your own crimes.

I don't think they should be building any monument at all, or at least we should be doing so much more sparingly than we are. I don't care if it's a monument to the victims of communism or fascism or the holocaust or anything. As we've seen time and time again in this city, they end up not contributing anything to the city or to public understanding or appreciation, they don't serve as an attraction, and they just end up being empty posturing. But if we must build these hideous things, then it would have a lot more moral weight if we instead focused on the crimes committed by our own government *in our name* before we turn our attention to the crimes committed by foreign governments on foreign lands.

Show me a monument to Indian Residential Schools, the last of which only closed down in 1997, to the depopulation of Indigenous peoples, to the MS St. Louis, to the Chinese rail workers and to LGBTQ Canadians. Those should be the higher priority if we must build these things.

Originally Posted by Geographer

There are many people who forgot or did not learn about the Holodomor, Stalin's Great Purge, the Red Terrors around the world, Mao's Great Leap Forward, Mao's Cultural Revolution, or the Khmer Rouge genocide in Cambodia, to name a few.

I literally don't know a single adult who has never heard of any of those things. If there are educated adults who don't know about those things, don't you think investing in education might be a better way of fixing that?

Originally Posted by Geographer

There are people on this very thread on SkyscraperPage that minimize and deny the crimes and evils of communist government and make a morally relativistic argument that communist is no worse than capitalism. There are people on this very thread who play the "What about ___?" game to deflect from the death toll and human suffering from communism.

The principal arguments I'm seeing in this thread are arguments from an urban design perspective, which is valid considering this an urban discussion forum. I'm not seeing any arguments against this because people are pro-starving Ukrainians. Sorry, I stopped reading your comment after there. I don't believe you're arguing in good faith.