The Great Canadian Transit Thread

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[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It makes me wonder sometimes if Toronto made a serious planning error when creating the subway system. It's experiencing serious capacity issues downtown, yet Montreal has slightly higher ridership and similar theoretical capacity, yet it isn't as tightly pressed. When you compare their respective route maps, the issue is obvious.

I have a feeling the DRL would still be needed. The Montreal metro looks to me more like a true metropolitan transportation system, more like a miniature version of the NYC subway. Whereas the TTC subway is strictly designed to get commuters in and out of downtown, so all the passengers going in one direction getting crushed onto one line. I've seen the Bloor-Danforth line completely packed, (like, people on the platform unable to board) as far west as Lansdowne during some especially bad rush hours.

I think it's simple: the city has experienced huge growth since the 60s, and the subway has experienced almost no growth. It has basically the same system configuration now as in 1966, when Bloor-Danforth opened. The last significant extension to Bloor-Danforth happened in 1980--35 years ago, since which the city has doubled in population.

[SkahHigh]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I have a feeling the DRL would still be needed. The Montreal metro looks to me more like a true metropolitan transportation system, more like a miniature version of the NYC subway. Whereas the TTC subway is strictly designed to get commuters in and out of downtown, so all the passengers going in one direction getting crushed onto one line. I've seen the Bloor-Danforth line completely packed, (like, people on the platform unable to board) as far west as Lansdowne during some especially bad rush hours.

I think it's simple: the city has experienced huge growth since the 60s, and the subway has experienced almost no growth. It has basically the same system configuration now as in 1966, when Bloor-Danforth opened. The last significant extension to Bloor-Danforth happened in 1980--35 years ago, since which the city has doubled in population.

I'm afraid expanding the system (LRT or subway) further away from Downtown, like towards Vaughan, Mount Dennis and Humber College will only bring more pressure on the Yonge line. DRL should be the TTC's priority. Improving the current system before expanding it.

[1overcosc]

Toronto was designed to be a much smaller city than it is and its rapid growth over the past 40 years has exceeded expectations.

Montreal was designed to be a much bigger city than it is and its growth over the past 40 years has been a lot less than expected.

This reflects in the design of both cities' transit networks.

[lrt's friend]

When comparing Toronto and Montreal, you have to consider Toronto's explosive growth in the last generation. Furthermore, Montreal has two full subway lines running through the downtown area. Toronto has only one. It is no wonder there are capacity issues in Toronto. It is going to take enormous investment in order to rectify this but there needs to be more rapid transit lines feeding into the downtown core. In reflecting back, Ontario paid a huge penalty in loss of transportation infrastructure improvement when we elected Mike Harris. We lost 10 years of opportunity which is most evident in the lack of planning and building of higher order transit lines during that time period. Thankfully, we are now taking a more progressive approach in order to make our cities more liveable. I think it is up to Toronto City Council to come up with a coherent plan instead of second guessing itself. Ottawa has also suffered through second guessing and lost opportunities.

With the Hamilton announcement, I do hope that Ottawa gets financing for some of its future transit plans, and not just Phase 2 of the Confederation Line.

[The_Architect]

It also helps that Montreal can build in all directions instead of being built against a big lake.

[GreatTallNorth2]

Originally Posted by MeIsThomas

Full new release:

Great news for Hamilton! I can only hope that this means there will be an investment announcement in London for rapid transit soon.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by The_Architect

It also helps that Montreal can build in all directions instead of being built against a big lake.

To a degree. Montreal has its own challenges being on an island and the St. Lawrence Seaway is a pretty big barrier in itself.

[lrt's friend]

I really wish Hamilton would put some financial commitment towards its own rapid transit plan but I understand Kathleen Wynne's vision and she is not going to allow local politicians to literally derail it.

Kathleen Wynne's vision is to connect Southern Ontario's major cities with a backbone rail system GO RER. To make this the ultimate success requires high quality transit connections within each city, whether LRT or subway. This is why we see the Hamilton LRT announcement, the previous Brampton/Mississauga announcement, and the current Kitchener/Waterloo LRT project. We see that a London project is ramping up and I would not be surprised if it becomes a full LRT project as well that will connect with the future high speed GO extension to London. The overall end result becomes greater than the individual projects and will allow millions of people in Southern Ontario to move around without the need of a car. It will be revolutionary and something will close to rival what the old radial railways did a century ago.

I think we should really look forward to the end result and in the meantime, I hope we do not elect a government which will destroy this vision.

In the bigger picture, we are also seeing significant improvements in service in the VIA Rail triangle between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. At some point, I would like to see late evening trains between Montreal and Ottawa especially on weekends.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

When comparing Toronto and Montreal, you have to consider Toronto's explosive growth in the last generation. Furthermore, Montreal has two full subway lines running through the downtown area. Toronto has only one. It is no wonder there are capacity issues in Toronto. It is going to take enormous investment in order to rectify this but there needs to be more rapid transit lines feeding into the downtown core. In reflecting back, Ontario paid a huge penalty in loss of transportation infrastructure improvement when we elected Mike Harris. We lost 10 years of opportunity which is most evident in the lack of planning and building of higher order transit lines during that time period. Thankfully, we are now taking a more progressive approach in order to make our cities more liveable. I think it is up to Toronto City Council to come up with a coherent plan instead of second guessing itself. Ottawa has also suffered through second guessing and lost opportunities.

With the Hamilton announcement, I do hope that Ottawa gets financing for some of its future transit plans, and not just Phase 2 of the Confederation Line.

It wasn't a Mike Harris thing. Similar things happened over the entire country save for the BC's Millennium Line beating Calgary's incremental expansion by a few years. Canada ran out of money and wasn't growing - it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I have a feeling the DRL would still be needed. The Montreal metro looks to me more like a true metropolitan transportation system, more like a miniature version of the NYC subway. Whereas the TTC subway is strictly designed to get commuters in and out of downtown, so all the passengers going in one direction getting crushed onto one line. I've seen the Bloor-Danforth line completely packed, (like, people on the platform unable to board) as far west as Lansdowne during some especially bad rush hours.

I think it's simple: the city has experienced huge growth since the 60s, and the subway has experienced almost no growth. It has basically the same system configuration now as in 1966, when Bloor-Danforth opened. The last significant extension to Bloor-Danforth happened in 1980--35 years ago, since which the city has doubled in population.

But it isn't so much the growth of the city that matters but rather the ridership of the system. If the systems had the same number of passengers and was laid out like in mydiagram, wouldn't that relieve the issue of people needing to use a single line?

A lot of the growth in the GTA, and what makes up much of the difference between the actual cities is best handled by a system like GO rather than the subway anyway. Not that both systems couldn't use expansion. Another in the form of a new line would do each wonders and allow ridership much higher than current. I but the ridership we currently see could have been handled more efficiently with a different layout.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

In the bigger picture, we are also seeing significant improvements in service in the VIA Rail triangle between Toronto, Ottawa and Montreal. At some point, I would like to see late evening trains between Montreal and Ottawa especially on weekends.

I find it odd that there have been so many more improvements to the Toronto-Ottawa line than to the Ottawa-Montreal line.. you'd think that Ottawa-Montreal would be a more winning line due to the shorter distance making it easier to compete against air travel.

Toronto-Ottawa has seen the number of scheduled trains almost double in the past 5 years and ridership has surged accordingly... Ottawa-Montreal has been pretty stagnant by comparison.

[TownGuy]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But it isn't so much the growth of the city that matters but rather the ridership of the system. If the systems had the same number of passengers and was laid out like in mydiagram, wouldn't that relieve the issue of people needing to use a single line?

A lot of the growth in the GTA, and what makes up much of the difference between the actual cities is best handled by a system like GO rather than the subway anyway. Not that both systems couldn't use expansion. Another in the form of a new line would do each wonders and allow ridership much higher than current. I but the ridership we currently see could have been handled more efficiently with a different layout.

What you've drawn up seems very much like what is going to happen with GO electrification and the Smart tracks plan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong though because I'm a little confused how those two plans are supposed to work together?

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But it isn't so much the growth of the city that matters but rather the ridership of the system. If the systems had the same number of passengers and was laid out like in mydiagram, wouldn't that relieve the issue of people needing to use a single line?

A lot of the growth in the GTA, and what makes up much of the difference between the actual cities is best handled by a system like GO rather than the subway anyway. Not that both systems couldn't use expansion. Another in the form of a new line would do each wonders and allow ridership much higher than current. I but the ridership we currently see could have been handled more efficiently with a different layout.

I may not be fully understanding how it would work? But I'm not sure from looking at it that it would be a big difference at rush hour--there would still be as many people from the ends of the lines, converging on a handful of downtown stations.

The city just really needs to extend the existing lines, and as SkahHigh says, and build the DRL (without which extending the system will only overload it more).

But that's not what's happening. Now the Finch LRT is taking priority over everything, apparently? And THEN the ridiculous Sheppard subway will be built? And THEN maybe, in the distant future, some kind of DRL?

I haven't been paying too much attention to Toronto transit lately, so I might be wrong, but that's my understanding of the latest. I also read that Doug Ford recently said the DRL would be his top priority, which is funny given all his anti-downtown stumping in recent years.

The Wynne government's big transit funding announcement this morning contained nothing about a DRL. All in all, it looks like like Toronto will continue to be totally screwed on the transit file in the short and medium term.

I keep thinking back to the Transit City plan, pre-Ford. What a goddamn tragedy it was killed.

[MoreTrains]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

I keep thinking back to the Transit City plan, pre-Ford. What a goddamn tragedy it was killed.

Yeah, but wouldnt that have been very unaffordable anyways?

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

But that's not what's happening. Now the Finch LRT is taking priority over everything, apparently? And THEN the ridiculous Sheppard subway will be built? And THEN maybe, in the distant future, some kind of DRL?

That's only the case at the provincial level. While Smarttrack is what Tory brought to the election and has been included in the 2015 Ontario Budget (basically as a part of the previously planned GO RER), the DRL has remained a priority for both the TTC and City Planning. Studies are underway and consultations regarding routing occurred this past March. However, the project is not at a stage where provincial funding can really be entertained. I would not be surprised to see it come back into the forefront before Sheppard does.

RER also has the potential to address many of the concerns the DRL would, at least in the short term. In the long term both are needed of course.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Yeah, but wouldnt that have been very unaffordable anyways?

It was partially funded. The most expensive portion of it by far (Eglinton Crosstown) is currently under construction.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

It wasn't a Mike Harris thing. Similar things happened over the entire country save for the BC's Millennium Line beating Calgary's incremental expansion by a few years. Canada ran out of money and wasn't growing - it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.

I do think that what Mike Harris was doing in Ontario was unique. His was a highly ideological government. They prioritized tax cuts and provincial services were cut in order to do provide them. The austerity went to fund the tax cuts and not to eliminate the deficit. They ultimately downloaded transit costs to the municipalities and ended any capital transit expenditures. This directly resulted in the end of most transit infrastructure spending to the point that they filled in the Eglinton subway tunnel that had begun construction. In the case of one city that I know, transit service was ended entirely. To this day, the Ontario Conservative party is tainted by what happened during the Mike Harris era. The continued movement of policy to the right within that party directly resulted in their defeat in the last provincial election. If Ontarians had elected Hudak, we would have repeated the Mike Harris era, with transit projects throughout the province coming to a standstill.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I find it odd that there have been so many more improvements to the Toronto-Ottawa line than to the Ottawa-Montreal line.. you'd think that Ottawa-Montreal would be a more winning line due to the shorter distance making it easier to compete against air travel.

Toronto-Ottawa has seen the number of scheduled trains almost double in the past 5 years and ridership has surged accordingly... Ottawa-Montreal has been pretty stagnant by comparison.

Do people actually fly between Ottawa and Montreal (when they aren't connecting from someplace else)? The distance is so short that when you consider having to get out to the airport an hour in advance plus the possibility of getting caught in big traffic jams going from YUL to downtown, any time advantage offered by planes over cars or trains is probably minimal.

The only time I ever flew from YOW-YUL was when I connected in YOW on a flight to YUL as I couldn't get a seat on a YWG-YUL direct... the plane for that short ride was a small turboprop, as compared to the big jets you routinely see on YUL-YYZ flights.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I find it odd that there have been so many more improvements to the Toronto-Ottawa line than to the Ottawa-Montreal line.. you'd think that Ottawa-Montreal would be a more winning line due to the shorter distance making it easier to compete against air travel.

Toronto-Ottawa has seen the number of scheduled trains almost double in the past 5 years and ridership has surged accordingly... Ottawa-Montreal has been pretty stagnant by comparison.

I think this may be a reflection of highway and traffic conditions. Highway 417 is a much nicer highway to drive on than Highway 401. The trucks have taken over the 401 is encouraging more and more people to consider alternatives. Yes, Highway 40 going into Montreal is not great but it is relatively short portion of the trip between Ottawa and Montreal.