Quebec, the French Language, and Quebecois Identity

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Sure tens of millions of old people in India and China know Céline Dion, but hundreds of millions of youth in those same countries know Drake.

Do they?

Also, when was the last time your "Drake" opened the Olympic Games in the US (or any country for that matter)?

Thought so.

As for "old heads", I listen to all sorts of radios and all sorts of music, from young to old, and I've never heard of your Drake. Can you post what's considered his most famous song here? I'll tell you whether it's played in France or not.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyl8eKa6faA

Never heard that song before. Only her French songs are known here. They never (or rarely) play her singing in English. As for the Titanic song, didn't she make a French version of it?

Her famous songs here are:

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[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

But back to the raison d'etre for this thread: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7--QUEBEC!!!!"
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One of my favorite songs ever!! The one song that immediately relieves the gloom after a long, dark and cold winter day.

I prefer this younger version though:

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[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Nashe

Edit: FWIW Wikipedia has Celine at $170-200m in sales and 145 million sales/downloads. It has drake at $175m in sales and 526 million sales/downloads.

It's like saying that the writer of Bridget Jones's Diary (what's his/her name again?) is more famous worldwide than Emily Brontë, just because there currently live more Anglophones than when Emily Brontë was an author.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by le calmar

One has to wonder what’s their long term legacy is going to be. Some of them sure like to pump out crap at a steady rate, and although it’s going to make the Top 10 or whatever “because it’s Drake”, everyone will have forgotten about most of those low quality songs a few months later. It’s an era of disposable songs and artists.

Yeah. I find it fascinating how radios here still play popular songs from the 1970s and 1980s, but almost nothing from the 2000s, as if nothing happened during the 2000s. Even super giga hits from the 1990s like this below (remember this?) have now totally fallen into oblivion and are never played anymore.

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The 1970s and 1980s are still doing great though. This afternoon they were playing this on the radio in Paris on my way to the library ("to make you forget about the snow and cold" said the guy on the radio):

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I doubt any Parisian (or European) radio will play "Drake" 40 years from now (if they play it at all now). I think they will still play Céline Dion 40 years from now from times to times, just as they still play Robert Charlebois or Diane Tell.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

At least for Drake the sheer quantity of hit songs he’s produced will lead to a sizeable number of them being remembered for decades. Off the top of my head I can easily see Marvin’s Room, God’s Plan, One Dance, Forever, Back to Back, and Started From the Bottom being timeless.

I've given a try to all the songs you've mentioned here, and I can confirm I have never heard any of them on any radio station here. And I don't listen to one particular radio station, I always switch from station to station, listening to absolutely everything from rap music to classical music. Never heard any of these. Considering that Paris has the largest variety of radio stations of all the cities where I've lived or traveled (far more radio stations and diversity of music than in London, NYC, to say nothing of LA), I think if these songs were super popular in Europe I would at least have heard one on at least one radio station here.

There are only 2 radio stations in Paris that I can think of which could play that sort of music, but I think it sounds too "English" and too "American" for their audience. They are more into this sort of stuff (below), which I find total crap by the way (your Drake is marginally better at least).

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I think you probably have a North American view of it (which is not surprising). Europeans believe they listen to American music, but in fact they listen to very different sorts of music than those played in North America (I know because I've lived on both continents). Your Drake is more designed for a North American audience than a European audience (especially "Started from the Bottom", this is really not the sort of music (young) people here would listen to, whereas I can totally see it catering to an American audience, in terms of music I mean, not lyrics to which I don't pay attention).

Here the equivalent of your Drake would be Aya Nakamura (i.e. super hyper famous among a crowd of devoted very young fans, but unknown by people older than 30... the French Acajack would be like "Naka who?", you often hear that when people discover how famous Nakamura is among younger people ).

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Needless to say, she's not my style AT ALL!

The first time I heard the name of Aya Nakamura was in this (actually nice) song made by pupils from a middle high school. At some point they cheekily say "c'est qui Aya Nakamura ?" ("who's that Aya Nakamura?"). That's the typical reaction among many (30+) people when they first hear about her. I love how the kids pronounce "c'est qui Aya Nakamura?"

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[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I'm no music industry analyst or expert but I'm thinking if one of the big Canadian stars of today will have something of a historical legacy, it might be a guy like The Weeknd. He's got great musicality, harmony and some measure of universal appeal.

Yeap. This below has been all over Europe. It reminds me some summer holidays. When was that? 2 years ago? 3 years ago? I listened to that driving 170 km/h on the motorway/freeway in Spain. Very addictive. I had no idea it was Canadian though (is it Canadian?). I thought it was European, as it's so totally the style of music people like here.

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They don't play it anymore though. It's the annoying thing with today's music. It's like BOOM all over the place, and then totally disappearing after 1 year or 2 at most.

In 2016 when I was in Italy this song below was all over the place (Italian radios playing it like 10 times a day), and now you can hardly listen to it anymore. It was a great song to drive on the motorway too.

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[GlassCity]

Regardless of sales numbers I think if you did a representative poll of either North America or the world, Celine Dion would have greater name recognition than Drake. She'd probably be the #1 most famous individual Canadian musician worldwide I would think, though maybe there are others who could be up there too.

Celine Dion is iconic to the point where she's outgrown her own music. Drake is just a successful artist who I agree is unlikely to stand the test of time; millennials listened to Metallica and Guns n Roses - I don't see teens in 2040 listening to Drake. I had to tell my Gen-X parents who Drake was a couple years ago. Agree that the Weeknd is the most likely contender of this generation of Canadian artists to have staying power.

Signed, a young millennial who had Drake as his #1 artist in this year's Spotify Wrapped.

[theman23]

.

[OldDartmouthMark]

The music discussion is a nice segue into a question that I have for our Quebecois members. I've thought about it from time to time, especially with the temperature of some of the discussions in this very thread...

Do you view Quebec performers (or people involved in music production, etc.) who have had success in the the anglo world to be a positive or a negative (i.e. do you congratulate them for their success, or think of them as 'trators')?

I'm thinking Celine, The Box, Daniel Lanois (performer and producer), Michel Pagliaro, etc. I'm a fan of all of them (though Celine isn't exactly the style I'm into, I do like some of her songs and admire her performances - sad about her health issues, though), and am familiar with their work because it broke into my part of the world, which it probably wouldn't have if they had only performed/worked in French.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, Cuba and Dominican Republic should be there.

Not sure what I said about how Quebecers behave in Cuba? Some of them behave badly there and some of them don't. Probably fairly similar to any segment of any group that finds itself in a place with unlimited booze and leisure time.

It doesn't have to do much with booze and partying. It's more how many from Quebec from my observations try to fit in with the local culture and more common among those aged 50 and up. I've seen them also pretend that they are pro-socialist/communist and that the system there is wonderful, especially among the lefty pro-sovereignty types. It also happens among some Canadians from other parts of Canada but not to the same degree.

[Luisito]

The first French Canadian artist I remember hearing as a kid were Mitsou and Roch Voisine.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Luisito

The first French Canadian artist I remember hearing as a kid were Mitsou and Roch Voisine.

Both had songs in English which gave them exposure outside francophone areas of Canada.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Regardless of sales numbers I think if you did a representative poll of either North America or the world, Celine Dion would have greater name recognition than Drake. She'd probably be the #1 most famous individual Canadian musician worldwide I would think, though maybe there are others who could be up there too.

Celine Dion is iconic to the point where she's outgrown her own music. Drake is just a successful artist who I agree is unlikely to stand the test of time; millennials listened to Metallica and Guns n Roses - I don't see teens in 2040 listening to Drake. I had to tell my Gen-X parents who Drake was a couple years ago. Agree that the Weeknd is the most likely contender of this generation of Canadian artists to have staying power.

Signed, a young millennial who had Drake as his #1 artist in this year's Spotify Wrapped.

I think this is very generational. I'm a late Gen X almost Millennial. Obviously I grew up with Celine Dion. I have come across Zoomers who basically bucket her into some old lady their parents listened to. For them Drake would carry far more name recognition. It might be different with Francophone Zoomers. And when it comes to Alphas? Most of them definitely have no clue who she is, because they are listening to what's on Spotify or YouTube right now and are unlikely to be familiar with her.

As for what today's teens are listening to in 2040, it's more likely to be Drake than Celine Dion. Though probably more likely to be BTS than Drake, Lol. I think some of you forget how these age cohorts work and what they were exposed to. Zoomers come from 1997 to 2012. Alphas come from 2013 onwards. The oldest Zoomers have just finished university. Most are finishing high school and starting university now. Alphas are still in elementary school and are more likely to be familiar with Baby Shark than Celine Dion.

Something else y'all are forgetting is how exposure to music works in the modern world. Kids don't listen to the radio anymore. They listen to Spotify. They are having their tastes reinforced by the algorithm. Chances your Alpha will be exposed to Celine Dion by the algorithm are rather low.

I recently made a Seinfeld reference to a middle Millennial I commute with. He did not get it at all. Yet, I don't know any Anglo Gen X who doesn't know Seinfeld. I think people forget how quickly pop culture can age.

[OldDartmouthMark]

I think younger people aren't aware yet, and most everybody else forgets that this trend has been repeated for each generation for at least as long as there has been marketed recorded music.

I think originally it was more organic and musician-driven whereby younger musicians coming along would be influenced by musicians of the generation before them, but want to create their own new form of art. Radio stations would pick up on this and play the latest, and if it struck a chord with young people they would continue with the trend.

As the business grew, the record companies would take notice of the potential profits to be made from new iterations of musical styles, and then work to find more acts of the 'new' style to give recording deals to (and steal their publishing rights in one-sided deals with hungry artists). The industry was monetized mostly by record sales, with touring used as promotion for the records as they were released.

Today the business has changed somewhat. The delivery of music and profit centers have changed, but the generational differences have not. Each generation thinks that their music is the only music that's any good and that the previous generation's was garbage. Then as they get older, they might start to appreciate the previous generations' music a little more, or expand their genres of interest, but much of the 'new music' will be crap in their minds, while the cycle repeats.

Of course it's way more complex than this, but no need to get into boring details... the point is that we have just witnessed an example of this repeating cycle right here on little old SSP.

[niwell]

^This.

Though I will say that teens these days do seem to listen to a relatively broad spectrum of music in terms of time periods and genres. It's very different to my experiences as a teen where if you listened to a certain genre that was "your thing". Metal guys would never listen to hip hop bar some minor exceptions (e.g. "I guess Nas has some good tracks") and vice versa. One big difference today being that it's largely not "albums" per se, but individual songs that younger people happen to run across. It's wild how many tiktoks use backing music from older artists that have subsequently seen massive download spikes on Spotify. But it's just the one track, not the broader catalogue. This has been confirmed to me by friends who do work in the music industry! Even some independent artists have made a decent chunk of cash from this phenomenon. The music industry simply operates in a different fashion than it did even 20 years ago, for better or worse.

Artists like Celine Dion will always have name recognition IMO, and I don't expect this to change for quite some time. Nor would I ever discount it. But I also wouldn't discount Drake, even if he isn't my cup of tea (he has a couple bangers though) or considered the "best" by the hip hop community. People deep into certain genres always tend to eschew artists that have reached a certain level of popularity which is something that probably never changes.

I still remember being a bit shocked/amused when I was in South Africa at just *how* many times I heard "You're from Toronto - Drake, right?" from disparate parts of the population (uber drivers, bartenders, people I met while out, etc.). I'm sure the kids have moved onto something else but there was quite a broad reach. Especially the connection with Toronto that may not be associated with (IMO) more talented acts like the Weeknd. Also met people who knew Toronto punk band Pup, but I doubt they knew they were from Toronto, or what their song "DVP" was referencing!

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The music discussion is a nice segue into a question that I have for our Quebecois members. I've thought about it from time to time, especially with the temperature of some of the discussions in this very thread...

Do you view Quebec performers (or people involved in music production, etc.) who have had success in the the anglo world to be a positive or a negative (i.e. do you congratulate them for their success, or think of them as 'trators')?

I'm thinking Celine, The Box, Daniel Lanois (performer and producer), Michel Pagliaro, etc. I'm a fan of all of them (though Celine isn't exactly the style I'm into, I do like some of her songs and admire her performances - sad about her health issues, though), and am familiar with their work because it broke into my part of the world, which it probably wouldn't have if they had only performed/worked in French.

Not sure Lanois fits on that list. He has lived in Ontario since he was a child.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Never heard that song before. Only her French songs are known here. They never (or rarely) play her singing in English. As for the Titanic song, didn't she make a French version of it?

To my knowledge Céline Dion never recorded a French version of My Heart Will Go On (the Titanic song).

In Quebec you hear both French and English material by Céline on the radio.

My favourite songs of hers tend to be the ones written by the Parisian Jean-Jacques Goldman. (I tend to like Goldman's style in general.)

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Luisito

The first French Canadian artist I remember hearing as a kid were Mitsou and Roch Voisine.

Ah, Roch Voisine! The girls were crazy about him. Never understood it. Wasn't he gay anyway?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

I've given a try to all the songs you've mentioned here, and I can confirm I have never heard any of them on any radio station here. And I don't listen to one particular radio station, I always switch from station to station, listening to absolutely everything from rap music to classical music. Never heard any of these. Considering that Paris has the largest variety of radio stations of all the cities where I've lived or traveled (far more radio stations and diversity of music than in London, NYC, to say nothing of LA), I think if these songs were super popular in Europe I would at least have heard one on at least one radio station here.

There are only 2 radio stations in Paris that I can think of which could play that sort of music, but I think it sounds too "English" and too "American" for their audience. They are more into this sort of stuff (below), which I find total crap by the way (your Drake is marginally better at least).

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I think you probably have a North American view of it (which is not surprising). Europeans believe they listen to American music, but in fact they listen to very different sorts of music than those played in North America (I know because I've lived on both continents). Your Drake is more designed for a North American audience than a European audience (especially "Started from the Bottom", this is really not the sort of music (young) people here would listen to, whereas I can totally see it catering to an American audience, in terms of music I mean, not lyrics to which I don't pay attention).

Here the equivalent of your Drake would be Aya Nakamura (i.e. super hyper famous among a crowd of devoted very young fans, but unknown by people older than 30... the French Acajack would be like "Naka who?", you often hear that when people discover how famous Nakamura is among younger people ).

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Needless to say, she's not my style AT ALL!

The first time I heard the name of Aya Nakamura was in this (actually nice) song made by pupils from a middle high school. At some point they cheekily say "c'est qui Aya Nakamura ?" ("who's that Aya Nakamura?"). That's the typical reaction among many (30+) people when they first hear about her. I love how the kids pronounce "c'est qui Aya Nakamura?"

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My kids and their friends listen to Aya Nakamura, so as a result I would recognize that song of hers immediately.