GO/VIA Transit

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

Two downtown rail stations may seem excessive now, but it will become an advantage 20-30 years from now. Easier to blend it into long term transit plans if it already exists rather than trying to fit it in 30 years from now.

To be honest, I'd be happy if either of them ended up as an optimized transit hub. Rapid transit and regional transit is greatly improved by efficient, no-fuss transitions on the final mile. Seamless travel is not something at which the HSR has been particularly adept.

[thistleclub]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

Niagara expansion is actually the reason James North was planned and is being built. If Hamilton was the end of the line, they would have used Hunter and widened the tunnel (or not, as they don't really need to).

Hemson Consulting forecasts that between 2011 and 2036, the City of Hamilton will add 103,000-245,000 residents and 50,000-121,000 jobs while the Niagara Region will add 79,000-234,000 residents and 19,000-93,000 jobs. That economic imbalance suggests good potential for increased commuter traffic.

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

In 20 years, hopefully population growth, gas prices and market trends will bring rail service back to Buffalo, which is why the Hunter station was there in the first place.

Doesn't Amtrak's Maple Leaf connect Buffalo with the GHA? Or are you referring to rail freight (ie. TH&B)?

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by flar

That's pretty nice. I expected a strip of asphalt with a roof and maybe a very small ticket building. This is an actual station.

phase one is essentially what you describe. It'll be upgraded to the render when all day GO comes in 5 or 6 years, providing the transit taxes can pass to allow for funding. This april really is make it or break it for dozens of transit projects across the GTHA.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

While Hamilton is too small for a fair comparison, I find Toronto has disadvantaged itself by having only one local/regional transit hub, which has contributed to its own shortcomings. All traffic comes into one station, which leads to bottleneck problems. Union is near capacity already and there is no room for expansion. It is also a single point of failure. Any disruption at or near Union Station paralyses the entire GO Train network. Toronto would be better served to have at least one other major passenger rail hub. Two downtown rail stations may seem excessive now, but it will become an advantage 20-30 years from now. Easier to blend it into long term transit plans if it already exists rather than trying to fit it in 30 years from now.

GO has long proposed to add a midtown line using the CP tracks that run across the city (http://transit.toronto.on.ca/gotransit/2106.shtml). This would use the North Toronto station, which is a gorgeous building currently home to an LCBO.

Whether it happens we'll see, and it's too far north to take pressure off Union's downtown passenger load. But it could serve Yorkville, which is booming and a lot of people do take the subway up from Union. If they could connect some of the other lines to this one, there would be opportunity to add trains from more of GO's other routes that could terminate at North Toronto (space is very limited there however)

Anyway, I too think having two stations in central Hamilton is an advantage and I think they can complement each other. There would still be demand for rush hour service from Hunter, and with the expected growth along James St. N and the harbourfront GO would have enough demand for service from the new station without cannibalizing the existing service. All day service might kill the express buses, but it may also present opportunities for new or expanded bus services radiating from Hamilton to surrounding cities.

[Innsertnamehere]

If the peterborough line ever gets built its going to use a new summerhill station, at least according to the EA that was done for it.

[markbarbera]

I would like to see GO Transit use the James North station as a logical extension of the Lakeshore West line along the CN rail between Niagara and Toronto Union, and have the Hunter Street rush hour trains follow a different route into Toronto - possibly along the CP rail line that runs north from Aldershot to Georgetown, then east along the northern edge of Toronto. I see it running Hamilton - Aldershot, heading north to the existing Georgetown GO station, proceeding along the current Georgetown line to Mount Pleasant, Brampton, and Bramalea, then, instead of following Georgetown line down to Malton, head northeast to meet the TTC's future Yonge-University-Spadina subway station at Highway 407 and Jane. It could even continue further east to Yonge and Steeles, linking up with any possible future subway station at Yonge and Steeles.

[Beedok]

Does the TH&B track after Hunter get used for anything at all these days?

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Does the TH&B track after Hunter get used for anything at all these days?

Freight trains still use that line. Four or five a day go past my place, I'd say.

[markbarbera]

We have friends that live on Alanson and their yard back onto the CP track. They say that there is a lot of freight traffic, and it has increased over the past couple years.

[Beedok]

Ah, okay. It's good it gets used. I was worried it sat unused.

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

We have friends that live on Alanson and their yard back onto the CP track. They say that there is a lot of freight traffic, and it has increased over the past couple years.

Hey, I live on Alanson too! I wonder if I know them.

[CaptainKirk]

Originally Posted by mattgrande

Hey, I live on Alanson too! I wonder if I know them.

Beauty street!

Great to see that whole neighbourhood slowly transform.

Hopefully it will accelerate as Stinson condo dwellers begin to move in.

Are houses still getting bought and fixed up around there, btwn Stinson and Main?

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by thistleclub

Doesn't Amtrak's Maple Leaf connect Buffalo with the GHA? Or are you referring to rail freight (ie. TH&B)?

Right, right you are. Oh well, maybe Fort Erie and Welland will be booming enough one day to get passenger service on the TH&B line.

It was proposed as an alternative for Niagara expansion but the Metrolinx papers noted it was less direct and maximum rail speeds are lower (80km/h in some sections). I still believe it may be the faster route to Buffalo however.

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by Jon Dalton

They also just built the storage facility behind the Hunter station. Can't store trains overnight at LIUNA.

Niagara expansion is actually the reason James North was planned and is being built. If Hamilton was the end of the line, they would have used Hunter and widened the tunnel (or not, as they don't really need to).

In 20 years, hopefully population growth, gas prices and market trends will bring rail service back to Buffalo, which is why the Hunter station was there in the first place.

It's not often you hear "population growth" and "Buffalo" in the same sentence. 20 years is a long time, so I hope that you're right that Fort Erie/St. Catharines/Welland booms and needs Go service (and I do hope that generally more commuting is done by rail), but I think some scepticism is in order.

I'm with coalminecanary: we shouldn't even be talking about this. We have an existing station at Hunter Street with capacity. The challenges to expanding service there were declared insurmountable too quickly.

I must be missing something, because I still can't see why having two stations 1.5 kilometers away from one another is an advantage. It would be much better to focus on integration of different modes at one location.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

It's not often you hear "population growth" and "Buffalo" in the same sentence. 20 years is a long time, so I hope that you're right that Fort Erie/St. Catharines/Welland booms and needs Go service (and I do hope that generally more commuting is done by rail), but I think some scepticism is in order.

I'm with coalminecanary: we shouldn't even be talking about this. We have an existing station at Hunter Street with capacity. The challenges to expanding service there were declared insurmountable too quickly.

I must be missing something, because I still can't see why having two stations 1.5 kilometers away from one another is an advantage. It would be much better to focus on integration of different modes at one location.

I was being a little sarcastic about Welland needing rail service, but also pointing out that connecting Toronto and Hamilton to Welland, Fort Erie and Buffalo (as well as Brantford) was the reason we ended up with the TH&B station. Some kind of demand on that route would be the best shot at bringing passenger trains back.

I know there are only 2 or 3 trains a day on the existing service to New York, so there isn't a great appetite for train travel to the US. Part of that is the horrible delays sometimes experienced at the border. Still, I like to think of a future in which our extensive rail infrastructure is once again used to move people between cities. With the volatility of oil prices, it may just happen in our lifetime.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

I'm with coalminecanary: we shouldn't even be talking about this. We have an existing station at Hunter Street with capacity. The challenges to expanding service there were declared insurmountable too quickly.

I must be missing something, because I still can't see why having two stations 1.5 kilometers away from one another is an advantage. It would be much better to focus on integration of different modes at one location.

Having all service at Hunter would be ideal. I don't buy the restriction on expanding the tunnel either, but the inability to extend service eastward to the rail line that makes the most sense for Niagara is a big problem. I wish it were feasible to use the track near Gage (and how cool would it be to have a station there between King and Barton?). They could probably consider adding a connector track through the Red Hill Valley, but that would probably be very costly due to the need for some kind of viaduct.

Overall I think this can work, though it has drawbacks. Some pros and cons I can think of regarding having the two stations (some of these are debatable of course )
PROS:
- overall improved service for city at more than one location
- new service to the north end supports expected future growth, and has potential positive business impacts
- keeps rush hour service at the more accessible station (especially to HSR routes)
- James N. is not far from the downtown core for the non-peak service
- boosts transit demand on James St. (routes 2, 4, 99; future A-line extension)
- potential to have rush hour service into (not just out of) downtown, if inbound demand ever warrants it
- no waste of the investment in the GO Centre and train storage
- if GO express bus service is cut, it opens up bus bays for new services (GO or HSR use)

CONS:
- connecting buses are not routed to one station
- split in service locations may be confusing to some people
- splitting service may not maximize utilization of both stations
- potential future shift of all services to the north end station (especially if the line is electrified)
- travellers from Niagara and those coming inbound during the day will not be routed directly into the downtown core
- additional cost of operating 2 stations (plus potential need to invest in north end train storage facilities)
- potential loss of the downtown express bus service to Toronto

[HillStreetBlues]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Having all service at Hunter would be ideal. I don't buy the restriction on expanding the tunnel either, but the inability to extend service eastward to the rail line that makes the most sense for Niagara is a big problem. I wish it were feasible to use the track near Gage (and how cool would it be to have a station there between King and Barton?). They could probably consider adding a connector track through the Red Hill Valley, but that would probably be very costly due to the need for some kind of viaduct.

Overall I think this can work, though it has drawbacks. Some pros and cons I can think of regarding having the two stations (some of these are debatable of course )
PROS:
- overall improved service for city at more than one location
- new service to the north end supports expected future growth, and has potential positive business impacts
- keeps rush hour service at the more accessible station (especially to HSR routes)
- James N. is not far from the downtown core for the non-peak service
- boosts transit demand on James St. (routes 2, 4, 99; future A-line extension)
- potential to have rush hour service into (not just out of) downtown, if inbound demand ever warrants it
- no waste of the investment in the GO Centre and train storage
- if GO express bus service is cut, it opens up bus bays for new services (GO or HSR use)

CONS:
- connecting buses are not routed to one station
- split in service locations may be confusing to some people
- splitting service may not maximize utilization of both stations
- potential future shift of all services to the north end station (especially if the line is electrified)
- travellers from Niagara and those coming inbound during the day will not be routed directly into the downtown core
- additional cost of operating 2 stations (plus potential need to invest in north end train storage facilities)
- potential loss of the downtown express bus service to Toronto

Well said, I think. The last con seems a big one to me. I suppose it would be cut only once Hamilton is getting more train service, but I think there could be confusion over the comparative benefits of the Lakeshore West line, and the Hamilton/Toronto Express Bus. Its headways are just great, and it is flexible, stopping now at Dundurn Toronto-bound, but also McMaster and Columbia and elsewhere Hamilton-bound, and more stops could easily be added as needed. It should be expanded if anything, even if Hamilton does one day get all-day train service.

Another one of your listed cons which I think has been understated is the fact that more travelers will be routed to the north end rather than the core. I guess that’s good for James North and good for people whose destination is there, but bad for downtown and a drawback for the many travelers whose business must be downtown.

[flar]

Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues

Well said, I think. The last con seems a big one to me. I suppose it would be cut only once Hamilton is getting more train service, but I think there could be confusion over the comparative benefits of the Lakeshore West line, and the Hamilton/Toronto Express Bus. Its headways are just great, and it is flexible, stopping now at Dundurn Toronto-bound, but also McMaster and Columbia and elsewhere Hamilton-bound, and more stops could easily be added as needed. It should be expanded if anything, even if Hamilton does one day get all-day train service.

Another one of your listed cons which I think has been understated is the fact that more travelers will be routed to the north end rather than the core. I guess that’s good for James North and good for people whose destination is there, but bad for downtown and a drawback for the many travelers whose business must be downtown.

I think it's totally meant to be a commuter service from Hamilton to Toronto, and that's it.

[drpgq]

Honestly I can't see the James North Station being much of a success. There's no density in the area and there's not a lot of room for more density in the area. Sure there will be some development in the harbour area, but it will end up being some unimpressive mid rises once the North East Neighbours start squawking. The HSR is set up to align with Hunter station and the MacNab terminal, so even getting to the station will be a hassle if you're taking the HSR and not along the Barton route. There's little room for parking and even then, if you miss the last of the two trips back from Toronto, you will have to take a GO bus back to MacNab and then get back to James North. Frankly when the ridership on the two daily trips is weak, they will put off all day go indefinitely.

[drpgq]

Hamilton Liberal candidates say LRT too expensive
All-day GO and bus rapid transit would better serve the city

http://www.thespec.com/opinion-story/4381257-hamilton-liberal-candidates-say-lrt-too-expensive/

By Ivan Luksic and Javid Mirza

A key public policy element to Metrolinx's "Big-Move" plan revolves around tackling gridlock in the GTHA (Greater Toronto & Hamilton Area). In Hamilton, much of the discussion has centred on establishing an LRT system from Eastgate Square to McMaster University. With an estimated cost of approximately $1 billion dollars (or $2,000 for every man, woman and child in Hamilton) we need to ensure Hamilton is getting value for public money spent.

We all acknowledge that HSR ridership is down. In the late 1980s, the system had a ridership of 31,482,000. Provincial cutbacks from the Harris days devastated the system and now we are left in an unfortunate situation where we have to catch up from past mistakes while building a strong system of public transit for future generations. Ridership bottomed out at 21,165,302 in 2006 and has only grown marginally to 21,795,884 in 2012 — a growth rate of just under 3 per cent.

If we are going to focus on increasing transit usage in Hamilton, we need to ensure that we have a system that is accessible to residents across the city. An LRT can be part of the solution eventually, but the larger issue is ensuring that we have better transit connections, particularly along the north-south corridor.

In speaking with many Hamilton councillors it is apparent that support on city council for an LRT at this time is not particularly strong.

We believe that LRT is expensive and does not bring us any closer to our two goals: linking up more of the city to public transit and increasing transit usage. We cannot in good conscience advocate spending $1 billion at this time when there are more pressing issues with respect to public transit.

An LRT leaves unanswered the following:

Many of our residents (particularly younger people) commute daily to Toronto: What does an LRT do to alleviate their daily commute?

....

Ivan Luksic

Ontario Liberal candidate — Hamilton East — Stoney Creek

Javid Mirza

Ontario Liberal candidate — Hamilton Mountain

Ivan Luksic is the Ontario Liberal candidate for Hamilton East–Stoney Creek riding and Javid Mirza is the Ontario Liberal candidate for Hamilton Mountain.