PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by Londonee

It’s a bummer. There are only so many viable large footprint urban tenants these days and this was one of them…especially as the city pivots to more experiential retail. KOP is by far the worst thing to happen to CC retail.

Yea, they average ~45k-50k square foot, that is sizable commercial tenant. A perfect fit for a revamped Market Street or somewhere along Broad Street.

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Ya this should have been a shoe in for the city. I think Eataly had plans to open on Market St years ago but that fell through for some reason. The “Well Philadelphians don’t really like high end cuisine” rationale doesn’t really apply here considering we’re one of the top dining destinations in the country lol.

I’ll say it again - I really think CC’s retail problem is due to a lack of promotion in terms of competing against KOP. This kind of once again proves it.

Agree. Eataly likely had Philadelphia on it's "potential expansion" radar for some time, and Simon courted them. If the Center City District, Ritt Row, or Visit Philly teams had more foresight, I'm sure they could have made a Center City location work, especially considering Philadelphia is a food mecca.

Originally Posted by PHL10

Outside of their “Silicon Valley” location, it seems that every location is in the downtown of that City (NYC, Chicago, Boston, LA, Dallas)….not a good boost for our confidence.

Eataly Dallas is in North Park Center (a mall). But yea, when looking at big dense downtowns, the new "Philly" location is the outlier. Eataly Toronto is also downtown.

[thoughtcriminal]

seems like now is the time to build the towers that were originally designed to go on top of the gallery when it was first designed. make at least one of them a hotel.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by skyhigh07

Ya this should have been a shoe in for the city. I think Eataly had plans to open on Market St years ago but that fell through for some reason. The “Well Philadelphians don’t really like high end cuisine” rationale doesn’t really apply here considering we’re one of the top dining destinations in the country lol.

I’ll say it again - I really think CC’s retail problem is due to a lack of promotion in terms of competing against KOP. This kind of once again proves it.

It's cheaper, easier and safer to run a business in KOP vs CC. Plain and simple.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Redddog

It's cheaper, easier and safer to run a business in KOP vs CC. Plain and simple.

This is a silly take. It’s cheaper, easier, and safer to run a business in White Plains vs. Manhattan.

The point is marketing/branding - you want to make Center City the *only* place to locate your brand b/c that’s where tastemakers live/work/play. But Center City has zero cache of this kind, even if it’s probably true.

[PhillyPDX]

Never been to an Eataly, have zero desire to (the name alone makes me cringe). Why would we care? Philly already has awesome authentic markets like RTM and Italian Market, and a downtown full of good restaurants. Is it just a pissing contest and desire to be "wanted" by a popular chain? Let KOP have the chains, Philly has the real deal.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by Redddog

It's cheaper, easier and safer to run a business in KOP vs CC. Plain and simple.

Can be said of literally every major city versus it's suburbs, sour puss.

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

Never been to an Eataly, have zero desire to (the name alone makes me cringe). Why would we care? Philly already has awesome authentic markets like RTM and Italian Market, and a downtown full of good restaurants. Is it just a pissing contest and desire to be "wanted" by a popular chain? Let KOP have the chains, Philly has the real deal.

I was waiting for a "who cares" comment. Local shops and national chains can peacefully co-exist in a big city, and both are needed to create a well rounded downtown that caters to residents, workers, tourists, and suburbanites.

Eataly is a popular large retailers, signs long-term leases, generates a lot of business and foot traffic, and contains a variety of vendors...but yea, who cares, Philly doesn't need that...

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I was waiting for a "who cares" comment. Local shops and national chains can peacefully co-exist in a big city, and both are needed to create a well rounded downtown that caters to residents, workers, tourists, and suburbanites.

Eataly is a popular large retailers, signs long-term leases, generates a lot of business and foot traffic, and contains a variety of vendors...but yea, who cares, Philly doesn't need that...

Which makes me think, any chance the presence of the Reading Terminal Market and two DiBruno Bros in Center City dissuaded them from a competition standpoint? (I doubt it but thought I'd throw it out there.)

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PhillyPDX

Never been to an Eataly, have zero desire to (the name alone makes me cringe). Why would we care? Philly already has awesome authentic markets like RTM and Italian Market, and a downtown full of good restaurants. Is it just a pissing contest and desire to be "wanted" by a popular chain? Let KOP have the chains, Philly has the real deal.

we need chains too. Lets not get too snobby. Chains will spend big on rent, big on outfitting space and will generally stay open at a location for many, many years. This isn't exactly mcdonalds we are talking about here.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

I was waiting for a "who cares" comment. Local shops and national chains can peacefully co-exist in a big city, and both are needed to create a well rounded downtown that caters to residents, workers, tourists, and suburbanites.

Eataly is a popular large retailers, signs long-term leases, generates a lot of business and foot traffic, and contains a variety of vendors...but yea, who cares, Philly doesn't need that...

exactly.

[summersm343]

I do think it stinks that Eataly did not choose Center City as that is where they definitely belong but it’s also not the end of the world.

Center City is roaring back to life. It’ll be fine. It’ll attract more national chains in time. In the meantime, I’ll be going to Reading Terminal, DiBruno’s and our slew of fantastic local brands and restaurants.

Also, I’m not above going to KOP from time-to-time. I actually like it and don’t think it’s nearly as horrific as some people on this forum make it out to be. It’s a great asset or the Philadelphia area.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by PHLtoNYC

Yea, they average ~45k-50k square foot, that is sizable commercial tenant. A perfect fit for a revamped Market Street or somewhere along Broad Street.



Agree. Eataly likely had Philadelphia on it's "potential expansion" radar for some time, and Simon courted them. If the Center City District, Ritt Row, or Visit Philly teams had more foresight, I'm sure they could have made a Center City location work, especially considering Philadelphia is a food mecca.



Eataly Dallas is in North Park Center (a mall). But yea, when looking at big dense downtowns, the new "Philly" location is the outlier. Eataly Toronto is also downtown.

I agree 150%. We need better marketing for Center City. We need a concerted effort from a conglomeration or all interested parties including Rittenhouse Row, Center City District, Visit Philly, City of Philadelphia, Retail brokerages, etc.

It really doesn’t need to be this hard. If we just had a group of different parties working together towards the same goal, it would do wonders.

I mean… just look at this lovely website for Newbury Street in Boston:
https://www.newburystboston.com/map/

…absolutely no reason Ritt Row and Center City District can’t do this for Walnut and Chestnut Streets.

[El Duderino]

I don't think it's terrible that Eataly picked KOP, as much as it could/would benefit Center City with a different location. A strong KOP is good for the Philly brand as a whole, as is a strong suburban ring. It doesn't have to be such a zero-sum game for city vs. burbs.

That said, Rittenhouse Row does seem to be doing less than it could be to drum up excitement outside of the boundaries of the neighborhood. I'm just reading the structure of the organization right now and it looks like it was founded as something of a child company of a PR firm, though it's a bit unclear from the info provided.

[Mayormccheese]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

I don't think it's terrible that Eataly picked KOP, as much as it could/would benefit Center City with a different location. A strong KOP is good for the Philly brand as a whole, as is a strong suburban ring. It doesn't have to be such a zero-sum game for city vs. burbs.

That said, Rittenhouse Row does seem to be doing less than it could be to drum up excitement outside of the boundaries of the neighborhood. I'm just reading the structure of the organization right now and it looks like it was founded as something of a child company of a PR firm, though it's a bit unclear from the info provided.

The people at gloss are very nice and mean well but are terribly unorganized and gave their priorities not always in the right place

[PHLtoNYC]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

I don't think it's terrible that Eataly picked KOP, as much as it could/would benefit Center City with a different location. A strong KOP is good for the Philly brand as a whole, as is a strong suburban ring. It doesn't have to be such a zero-sum game for city vs. burbs.

That said, Rittenhouse Row does seem to be doing less than it could be to drum up excitement outside of the boundaries of the neighborhood. I'm just reading the structure of the organization right now and it looks like it was founded as something of a child company of a PR firm, though it's a bit unclear from the info provided.

I agree, strong burbs benefit the city and the state, (and Philly has plenty), and I've never pushed for a city v. burbs approach, I just find this particular instance a let down.
Hermes, Fendi, Jimmy Choo, etc., belong in KoP for reasons previously discussed, but a place like Eataly belongs in Center City. (IMO).

But it is what it is, there is still no shortage of excellent food markets in Center City.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by El Duderino

That said, Rittenhouse Row does seem to be doing less than it could be to drum up excitement outside of the boundaries of the neighborhood. I'm just reading the structure of the organization right now and it looks like it was founded as something of a child company of a PR firm, though it's a bit unclear from the info provided.

That is pretty clear. Looks like a one woman PR shop whose owner is also Exec Director of Rittenhouse Row. And she lives in Penn Valley, rather than Philadelphia. Or maybe lives in Philly, if you believe her fb profile.

https://thephiladelphiacitizen.org/a.../corie-moskow/

[TK2001]

I was just at Eataly NYC Downtown last weekend. When I went in 2016, one half of the floor was markets, the other half was the restaurant. Now, it seems like the markets have greatly taken over (probably changed after covid) and even the markets now have their own seating space (still mostly on the 9/11 Memorial side). Do I personally see Center City needing this? No, Eataly and Reading Terminal Market are SOMEWHAT similar and citizens of the city might not be attracted to a chain market. However, with the location of RTM, I could also see citizens of the city wanting a large market located somewhere else in the city

[UrbanRevival]

Yeah, the case of Eataly is actually more complex for me.

I understand the feelings of being "snubbed" by a potential retail operation choosing KOP, but I think in this specific case it is a bit more murky as far as potentially cannibalizing local purveyors like DiBruno or the Termini Bros.

Think of it this way: local food establishments are the one obvious sector that drives so much visitor money for local Philadelphians. So many people visit Philadelphia for that very reason. This is not like a case of trying to get a Fendi on Walnut Street, but not wanting to disrupt a (hypothetical) well-known local luxury purse-making industry.

While a large, corporate food market entity like Eataly would certainly drive foot traffic, I'm not convinced it wouldn't end up being somewhat detrimental to RTM vendors. At the end of the day, I'd rather be assured that local food vendors are getting that money in their pockets than sending it to the executives of Eataly.

[Jayfar]

Originally Posted by TK2001

I was just at Eataly NYC Downtown last weekend. When I went in 2016, one half of the floor was markets, the other half was the restaurant. Now, it seems like the markets have greatly taken over (probably changed after covid) and even the markets now have their own seating space (still mostly on the 9/11 Memorial side). Do I personally see Center City needing this? No, Eataly and Reading Terminal Market are SOMEWHAT similar and citizens of the city might not be attracted to a chain market. However, with the location of RTM, I could also see citizens of the city wanting a large market located somewhere else in the city

There had been off and on talk of expanding RTM across Filbert St into the Reading headhouse. That’s a thing that should happen.

[Sir610Jawnman]

Forget about Eataly or any overrated chains. Let other struggling major cities have them as tourist traps since their cities don't offer the cultural amenities Philly has, and it's not just CC. We're the best food city in the US, and even if nobody considers Philly the official culinary capital, I do and currently I'm both glad and overwhelmed to live in the finest 135 sq. mi. of the USA.

OK, enough boostering, but seriously Reading Terminal Market should be advertised and better known to outsiders. This is indisputably the greatest urban market in the country and should serve as a paragon of how to create vibrant public spaces. How many other cities do you have an urban market so close to a convention center, a main street, a train station, a Greyhound station, and a short walk from so many world-class attractions?

Again I apologize for hyper-praising Philly but I can't help it to learn and realize this city is changing so fast the last few years it feels like it's too good for me to live in and what have I done to deserve such a classy place to call home. I'm truly humbled by Philly and I want to rescind any negative opinions I might have about this city before. Unlike many newcomers, I've been in this region since the 90s and I've seen the worst days and when it WAS dangerous to walk around Center City after dark or on weekends.