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  #6181  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2025, 11:40 PM
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I pass a 4plex most days here in Coquitlam, it was probably completed in the spring and all 4 units are still sitting empty, it replaced a SFH, the area does have one other 4plex under construction and a few more proposal signs for a few more. The units look so tiny.
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  #6182  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seamusmcduff View Post
"Multi Plex zoning is already proving to be a disaster"

Looks great to me. Are they really downgrading it in Burnaby like the tweet suggests?
Yes, huge cuts to density for R1 zoning and increased parking minimum. Total BS.

https://www.burnaby.ca/our-city/news...d-developments

Quote:
Height and size reduced

Under the City amendments, building heights will be reduced from a maximum of 4 storeys to 3 storeys (and 10 metres). Rear principal buildings will be limited to 2 storeys in height, and the achievable floor area of projects will be reduced 33-60% depending on the housing type, unit count and lot size.

Lot coverage reduced

Maximum lot coverage is reduced by 5% for all housing types and by 10-15% under certain conditions.

Parking requirements increased

Parking minimums will increase from 0 to 0.5 spaces per unit to 0.67 to 1 space per unit, depending on the housing type and overall unit count. However, Provincial legislation limits the City’s ability to enforce parking minimums on R1 lots located in transit-oriented areas, which accounts for approximately 57% of the City’s R1 lots.
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  #6183  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 2:22 PM
ecbin ecbin is offline
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Originally Posted by PBlonde View Post
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not here. Hasn't Burnaby been approving the most density of any municipality in the lower mainland? Granted it's in the form of towers and not infill density...
https://catalogue.data.gov.bc.ca/dat...ts-website.pdf

It's a total myth that Burnaby is a leader in housing - they are the living embodiment of the "Grand Bargain" where a lot of people are stuffed into a few small plots of land while landowners lord over big lots with small houses.

They have 40% of the population density of Vancouver despite having comparable infrastructure and have been building a lot less housing especially of the kind people need.
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  #6184  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 5:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ecbin View Post
Yes, huge cuts to density for R1 zoning and increased parking minimum. Total BS.

https://www.burnaby.ca/our-city/news...d-developments
Quote:
...the achievable floor area of projects will be reduced 33-60% depending on the housing type, unit count and lot size.

...feedback from residents highlighted the need for refinements to ensure developments remain compatible with surrounding homes.
Truly bitch behaviour. Once again the silent majority is drowned out by special interest groups.

Last edited by chowhou; Oct 17, 2025 at 5:31 PM.
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  #6185  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 5:32 PM
seamusmcduff seamusmcduff is online now
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Originally Posted by ecbin View Post
Yes, huge cuts to density for R1 zoning and increased parking minimum. Total BS.

https://www.burnaby.ca/our-city/news...d-developments
Wow that's awful. It likely kills the viability of most projects
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  #6186  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 6:10 PM
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Originally Posted by seamusmcduff View Post
Wow that's awful. It likely kills the viability of most projects
Intended consequences
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  #6187  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 6:15 PM
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The multi plexes would be perfectly fine once they started grouping together.

The specifications for height and lot coverage for multi plexes (1 category) was 4 stories and 50% lot coverage, which is what most Burnaby lots would fall under, is the equivalent of 2 FSR. If this is reduced by 33% as was mentioned, that still leaves a healthy 1.3 FSR equivalent. That is certainly enough to entice developers, and is still better than Vancouver at only 1 FSR.

This makes Burnaby look stupid though. Backing down so quickly makes it look like they don't know what the hell they are doing.
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  #6188  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by djmk View Post
That is not a laneway house. that is a mini apartment building. I understand the need but i would be choked if that was my neighbor
It's not suppose to be a laneway house, and every house around that house pictured is zoned the same.

It's a very normal thing for a growing city to upzone single family homes into 4 story multiple unit dwellings. We have even seen 30 story towers go into these areas. NIMBY's get their way again, which is what got us into our affordability crisis, and having the Province step in.
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  #6189  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 7:25 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
The multi plexes would be perfectly fine once they started grouping together.

The specifications for height and lot coverage for multi plexes (1 category) was 4 stories and 50% lot coverage, which is what most Burnaby lots would fall under, is the equivalent of 2 FSR. If this is reduced by 33% as was mentioned, that still leaves a healthy 1.3 FSR equivalent. That is certainly enough to entice developers, and is still better than Vancouver at only 1 FSR.

This makes Burnaby look stupid though. Backing down so quickly makes it look like they don't know what the hell they are doing.
It's what Burnaby is great at.
Backing down quickly at the slightest hint of protest from the NIMBY types.

As someone else noted upthread the city is already way behind the other cities when it comes to building out for the missing middle, and getting infills and lower density (but multi-unit) housing started and going.

And you can see because of stuff like this is why they'll likely never catch up.

It seems like the province will have to step in again before too long - followed by the inevitable whining by the mayor and council about the province butting in and forcing them to have to deal with the issue.
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  #6190  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 7:33 PM
Burquitlaman Burquitlaman is offline
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The changes were discussed by Steve Saretsky in this vlog.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTd10f3UbjY
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  #6191  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 7:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
It's what Burnaby is great at.
Backing down quickly at the slightest hint of protest from the NIMBY types.

As someone else noted upthread the city is already way behind the other cities when it comes to building out for the missing middle, and getting infills and lower density (but multi-unit) housing started and going.

And you can see because of stuff like this is why they'll likely never catch up.

It seems like the province will have to step in again before too long - followed by the inevitable whining by the mayor and council about the province butting in and forcing them to have to deal with the issue.
I think it will be hard for the province to justify stepping in if the density allowed is technically more than Vancouver. The issue is that the proposed parking rate and height limit will make the allowable density really hard to achieve. Plus Vancouver has set a really bad precedent with their multiplex zoning, since it's hardly viable as well.
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  #6192  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 9:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecbin View Post
https://catalogue.data.gov.bc.ca/dat...ts-website.pdf

It's a total myth that Burnaby is a leader in housing - they are the living embodiment of the "Grand Bargain" where a lot of people are stuffed into a few small plots of land while landowners lord over big lots with small houses.

They have 40% of the population density of Vancouver despite having comparable infrastructure and have been building a lot less housing especially of the kind people need.
Looking at that data, Burnaby is consistently top 3 housing starts going back to 2016. They also have a far smaller population than Vancouver and Surrey to begin with so if you look at it as a % of current population they are proportionately leading the increase in housing over the last 10 years (based on most recent population data: Burnaby ~300k, Vancouver ~750k, Surrey ~700k).

Is there anything inherently wrong with creating a significant amount of density over transit stations/commercial hubs without building much density in between? Is that density worth less than having more density via infill housing? Lastly, is the reason that density isn't there because the City gets in the way or there's not enough demand for developers to feel comfortable building that greater density infill housing and therefore requesting rezoning?

Burnaby was slow to move on the multiplex stuff but they were effectively already executing TOA density (and greater) well before it was mandated. Their multiplex policy now which they've walked back still allows greater density than the CoV. I also don't understand what you mean by "the kind of housing that people need". They could push for more family oriented suite sizes but I expect that developers wouldn't have built as much housing if they were forced to change their unit mix. What's the difference between a 2/3 bedroom unit in a tower vs a 2/3 bedroom unit in a 4 or 6 plex?
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  #6193  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 9:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
The multi plexes would be perfectly fine once they started grouping together.

The specifications for height and lot coverage for multi plexes (1 category) was 4 stories and 50% lot coverage, which is what most Burnaby lots would fall under, is the equivalent of 2 FSR. If this is reduced by 33% as was mentioned, that still leaves a healthy 1.3 FSR equivalent. That is certainly enough to entice developers, and is still better than Vancouver at only 1 FSR.

This makes Burnaby look stupid though. Backing down so quickly makes it look like they don't know what the hell they are doing.
I'm not sure 1.3FSR pencils in Burnaby because of the fees the city charges - $82k per unit for low density (SFH or Duplex) or $56k per unit for medium density (multiplex). I've seen a couple pro formas from earlier this year and Burnaby, I think, needs 1.5 or more to pencil due to the fees. I'm sure some stuff will work at 1.3FSR but definitely far fewer places than before. At 2FSR pretty much any lot can be profitable.
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  #6194  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 9:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PBlonde View Post
- snip -
Growth rate is garbage unless the populations are near equal. If North Elbow, population 1,000, gets 100 more residents, that's 10%; if Cascadia, 1,000,000, gets 50,000, that's only 5%; one would be hard-pressed to say that North Elbow is developing faster than Cascadia.

The general consensus in urbanism is that "towers in the park" doesn't work.
It's because suburban city councils are greedy for developer fees, but NIMBY homeowners hate the idea of density, so they reach a compromise where all the development takes places on greyfield in the city centre, leaving the 'burbs untouched. That's the Grand Bargain.
Problem is, once you run out of malls, warehouses and walkups, you're back to square one: that's where Burnaby is now. Add the fact that they've been neglecting walkability and amenities for just as long, and what you effectively have is a bunch of bedroom communities that still commute into Vancouver for most things; nothing wrong with that, but also not the model city some think it is.

By contrast, Vancouver's been adding towers to the downtown core and pushing back against suburbistan and carmageddon at the same time, so they're still getting better while Burnaby's starting to slump.
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  #6195  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 10:14 PM
Spr0ckets Spr0ckets is offline
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Originally Posted by PBlonde View Post
Looking at that data, Burnaby is consistently top 3 housing starts going back to 2016. They also have a far smaller population than Vancouver and Surrey to begin with so if you look at it as a % of current population they are proportionately leading the increase in housing over the last 10 years (based on most recent population data: Burnaby ~300k, Vancouver ~750k, Surrey ~700k).

Is there anything inherently wrong with creating a significant amount of density over transit stations/commercial hubs without building much density in between?

Yes,....if most of that density tends to be geared towards higher income families (the condo/strata set) as regularly used to be the case before the whole "Demoviction" uproar that forced the previous administration out of office.

It's easy to say (and pat yourself on the back) for executing TOA density (or greater) policies (which,....to be fair they were) until you look into the details and realize that a lot of tht density wasn't actually serving the purpose it was meant to be serving.

And even more so, when the old stock housing it was getting built over was affordable housing that wasn't getting replaced.

Now, a lot of those missteps have been rectified somewhat with new rental replacement and affordable requirement policies, but because the whole region was so far behind the curve in terms of provision of housing, they were never going to be enough on their own.

The reason infill housing and density in areas farther away from transit nodes becomes more important is because thanks in part to TOA regulations, land in areas at or around transit nodes is now more expensive and thus more expensive to build on that as a developer you kind of have to have that market component to make the numbers work if you're going to develop around these areas and provide the requisite affordable housing.

Farther away from the transit hubs, it's still relatively expensive, but not as much as the nodes, and therein comes the question of the missing middle and how infill housing can help provide more affordable (both to build and to rent/own) housing.

You asked what's the difference between a 2/3 bedroom unit in a tower and one in a 4 or 6 plex?

The former is not only more expensive to build, but also takes longer to get to market (due to how much longer it takes to build concrete towers than lowrise woodframes.).
Yes, tower will provide you with more in one shot, and depending on the case (and location) over time could prove better value for money, but in the 4-6 or 7 years it could take to go from rezonig application to construction completion of that tower, you could have built and occupied almost half to 2/3rds as much housing in the form of infill and plexes, in just about one third (or less) time it takes.

Infills and plexes are not going to fix the problem on their own.
Just like TOA densification was never going to be the silver bullet on its own either.
It needs to be an "all of the above" approach, and noted Burnaby has notoriously been slow(er) and more stubborn in some approaches than others (often favouring, or bowing to the SFH'ers and the NIMBY set)

Maybe one thing that Burnaby has in its favour is that it's population isn't growing as fast as Surrey's or Vancouver's, but that obviosuly comes with drawbacks of its own.
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  #6196  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
It's not suppose to be a laneway house, and every house around that house pictured is zoned the same.

It's a very normal thing for a growing city to upzone single family homes into 4 story multiple unit dwellings. We have even seen 30 story towers go into these areas. NIMBY's get their way again, which is what got us into our affordability crisis, and having the Province step in.
It says laneway house in the tweet.

sure, but neighbours can still get choked up. And if you paid 2 million for a house and this happened next door, you would be choked as well.
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  #6197  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 10:39 PM
seamusmcduff seamusmcduff is online now
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Why do you keep assuming everyone else agrees with you? The only thing I would be annoyed/choked up with would be the construction noise, but that's temporary. I don't expect purchasing land to give me say over what others can do with their property.

Besides, the fact that 80% of the land in Burnaby is locked up in single family homes that only existing owners and the extremely wealthy can afford is a far bigger issue, don't you think? The affordability crisis is a far more pressing issue than millionaires having a few more neighbours and having to look at homes they don't like.
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  #6198  
Old Posted Oct 17, 2025, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by djmk View Post
It says laneway house in the tweet.

sure, but neighbours can still get choked up. And if you paid 2 million for a house and this happened next door, you would be choked as well.
I paid for my house and I'm massively choked that the most problematic complainers in society have a stranglehold on what I and my neighbours are allowed to do with our homes and properties.
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  #6199  
Old Posted Oct 18, 2025, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Spr0ckets View Post
~~
Really appreciate this detailed response! At this point in time, strata/condo is really the easiest way for anyone to get into the housing market. I don't think we really need to worry about that section of the market too much either as I doubt we'll see a bunch of condo projects going forward in the next 24 months.
I wholeheartedly agree that having a significant node of density that is solely residential is a problem (in the short term, more on that later). I think Burnaby has done really well with Metrotown and Brentwood which have solid amenities and commercial along side residential. All the people Iknow that live in Brentwood/Metrotown, especially with young families, say it's one of the most walkable areas in MV.
Slamming a bunch of towers on a skytrain station without anything else nearby definitely solves one part of the housing equation but will be to the detriment of surrounding areas when people are driving for even the smallest grocer needs. In saying that, I still believe that if you build it, people will come and that works for commercial. If you have a significant enough residential population, grocery stores, entertainment, doctors/dentists will end up coming in, it can be a bit of a chicken and egg scenario. If it's directly on transit while it is a bedroom community, at least there's easy transit for those to get DT to work etc while the surrounding areas develop. For the amount of fees that the CoB charges, they should be able to outfit those bedroom communities with some more community amenities to fill in that last piece of the puzzle.
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  #6200  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2025, 11:06 PM
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I'll be the first to admit that Burnaby's done a pretty good job with Silver Lane and Brentwood's courtyard... every street around them, though, might as well be a highway. Subjectively, Georgia or Broadway feel a lot safer than Lougheed or Willingdon despite twice as much traffic.

Depending on demand, of course; assuming the new wave of studio units remains unsold, one supermarket, two banks and a dentist does not a neighbourhood make. Even Marine Gateway's been taking a while to mature.

As for amenities, Burnaby's been either axing or downsizing almost every new plan for community/rec centres and cancelled the new city hall because of sticker shock, so that part is still up in the air.
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