National Economy

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They were working in their spare time before Trudeau lifted the work limits during the school year. The million new “students” here to “take” very questionable college and career college programs are not here for an education.

Does anybody even question this at this point? Other than colleges and "colleges" does anyone think this is a good idea?

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by acottawa

They were working in their spare time before Trudeau lifted the work limits during the school year. The million new “students” here to “take” very questionable college and career college programs are not here for an education.

Exactly!

No one comes to Canada for "temporary" work or to get an education but rather to get citizenship which now, thanks to Trudeau, is automatic. As soon as someone sets foot in Canada they are on their way to citizenship as no one is ever told to leave regardless of how they got into the country or whether they are working or going to school or not. Canada could solve much of it's housing crisis by simply enforcing the contracts made with these newcomers........you've studied and/or worked for the length of your temporary student/work VISA has allowed now good luck and good bye.

Of course these newcomers know they will NEVER be forced to leave the country and get their citizenship usually paid for by their parents knowing that once their kids get citizenship, due to our ridiculous family reunification program, they too will be able to come, securing their retirement in the land of milk & honey. This is why our emergency rooms are packed with people who can't speak either language.

The term temporary means exactly that and, unless they are in VERY high demand professional/skilled occupation, they should unceremoniously be told to leave freeing up hundreds of thousands of housing units overnight.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Does anybody even question this at this point? Other than colleges and "colleges" does anyone think this is a good idea?

It's not a bad idea. There are clearly fields where we have gaps. The execution has been absolutely horrible.

Should add that Trudeau himself was a critic of the TFW program when in Opposition. He clearly understood the suppressive effect on wages. But it seems in government, saving fast food and retail became the priority.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's not a bad idea. There are clearly fields where we have gaps. The execution has been absolutely horrible.

Should add that Trudeau himself was a critic of the TFW program when in Opposition. He clearly understood the suppressive effect on wages. But it seems in government, saving fast food and retail became the priority.

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

Liberal sycophants be syncophatin’….

[casper]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

I think that is a broad trend. I may be wrong, but my impression is during and after COVID, many Canadian born working in those industries shifted into other non-consumer facing positions. Those dependable foreign workers will over time also move into other roles in society. It is a win-win for the Canadian economy.

As for the problems with addiction. I just don't know what is going on in society but as a society we have a serious problem. It is not a Liberal/Conservative thing or a Canada/US thing. It is across North America. While the Liberals have not done a great job at containing and mitigating it I have little hope for the Conservatives to do the same.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Liberal sycophants be syncophatin’….

Marginal business manages to stay open after finding out it can profit from slave labour. News at 11.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

This sounds like a nice warm, fuzzy story until you consider the totality of effects and externalities here. We have a business that can't stay open without a pipeline of low wage labour (foreign students) and an employer unwilling to develop local talent or hire high school kids (as restaurants did in the past). The presence of these foreign students has undoubtedly driven up rents. So while your relative has done well, your community is probably worse off. And in the process of saving his restaurant, we've probably killed the dreams of others who want to open their own. This second part was the most infuriating thing about the COVID bailouts. We saved the Boomer restauranteur and crushed the dreams of the Millennial or Zoomer chefs in the back. Impeding normal "creative destruction" of capitalism on the backs of our communities isn't something we should be proud of.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

I think that is a broad trend. I may be wrong, but my impression is during and after COVID, many Canadian born working in those industries shifted into other non-consumer facing positions. Those dependable foreign workers will over time also move into other roles in society. It is a win-win for the Canadian economy.

Will they?

Canadian immigration has been successful in recent decades because it targeted highly-skilled or highly-educated immigrants. These foreign students at career colleges or other questionable postsecondary programs are not that, otherwise they could have come to Canada under existing immigration programs rather than going through the extra steps of signing up for a career college and paying a bunch of tuition.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by casper

I think that is a broad trend. I may be wrong, but my impression is during and after COVID, many Canadian born working in those industries shifted into other non-consumer facing positions. Those dependable foreign workers will over time also move into other roles in society. It is a win-win for the Canadian economy.

Will they?

Canadian immigration has been successful in recent decades because it targeted highly-skilled or highly-educated immigrants. These foreign students at career colleges or other questionable postsecondary programs are not that, otherwise they could have come to Canada under existing immigration programs rather than going through the extra steps of signing up for a career college and paying a bunch of tuition.

I would agree with you that COVID pushed a lot of people out of the service sector - two years of lockdowns will do that.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Loco101

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

There is no doubt employers prefer foreign students or temporary foreign workers over local employees for low-skill jobs. They work harder for less money and talk back less.

However, the Government's job is to take into account the overall needs of the country, not just the preference of employers.

[theman23]

Just a reminder, this was Justin Trudeau on short term foreign workers in 2014:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/cont...642e4eb7c.html

Originally Posted by Justin Trudeau in 2014

As a result, the number of short-term foreign workers in Canada has more than doubled, from 141,000 in 2005 to 338,000 in 2012. There were nearly as many temporary foreign workers admitted into the country in 2012 as there were permanent residents — 213,573 of the former compared to 257,887.

At this rate, by 2015, temporary worker entries will outnumber permanent resident entries.

This has all happened under the Conservatives’ watch, despite repeated warnings from the Liberal Party and from Canadians across the country about its impact on middle class Canadians: it drives down wages and displaces Canadian workers.

Originally Posted by Justin Trudeau in 2014

It cuts to the heart of who we are as a country. I believe it is wrong for Canada to follow the path of countries who exploit large numbers of guest workers, who have no realistic prospect of citizenship. It is bad for our economy in that it depresses wages for all Canadians, but it’s even worse for our country. It puts pressure on our commitment to diversity, and creates more opportunities for division and rancour.

Oof. Talk about bait and switch. No wonder Loco's family members didn't support that guy.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

tl;dr "I have discovered that businesses prefer Indentured Servants to regular employees"

Bravo Einstein

[lio45]

Originally Posted by theman23

Marginal business manages to stay open after finding out it can profit from slave labour. News at 11.

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

This sounds like a nice warm, fuzzy story until you consider the totality of effects and externalities here. We have a business that can't stay open without a pipeline of low wage labour (foreign students) and an employer unwilling to develop local talent or hire high school kids (as restaurants did in the past). The presence of these foreign students has undoubtedly driven up rents. So while your relative has done well, your community is probably worse off. And in the process of saving his restaurant, we've probably killed the dreams of others who want to open their own. This second part was the most infuriating thing about the COVID bailouts. We saved the Boomer restauranteur and crushed the dreams of the Millennial or Zoomer chefs in the back. Impeding normal "creative destruction" of capitalism on the backs of our communities isn't something we should be proud of.

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no doubt employers prefer foreign students or temporary foreign workers over local employees for low-skill jobs. They work harder for less money and talk back less.

However, the Government's job is to take into account the overall needs of the country, not just the preference of employers.

Exactly. All three of you are 100% correct.

I remember pointing out on this forum already, something that's so obvious that it goes without saying: The optimal way to run a labor-heavy business is to use slave labor.

The ONE AND ONLY reason companies don't do that, is that we have chosen to make that illegal (but are kinda loosening those rules now).

Loco's relative, rather than give a nonzero hourly pay to South Asian Indentured Servants who work hard for minimal pay and don't complain, would be EVEN BETTER SERVED by capturing regular Timmins citizens at gunpoint, and have them flip burgers while in chains for no pay other than basic food until they die of old age (*if* that was allowed.)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by theman23

Just a reminder, this was Justin Trudeau on short term foreign workers in 2014:

https://www.thestar.com/opinion/cont...642e4eb7c.html





Oof. Talk about bait and switch. No wonder Loco's family members didn't support that guy.

Originally Posted by Justin Trudeau

TFWs drive down wages and displace Canadian workers but that's a feature, not a bug!

^ That's probably the real quote, and explains why he's all-in on the Scheme of Great Enrichment

(Or else he's just a liar, that's the other option!)

[theman23]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly. All three of you are 100% correct.

I remember pointing out on this forum already, something that's so obvious that it goes without saying: The optimal way to run a labor-heavy business is to use slave labor.

The ONE AND ONLY reason companies don't do that, is that we have chosen to make that illegal (but are kinda loosening those rules now).

Loco's relative, rather than give a nonzero hourly pay to South Asian Indentured Servants who work hard for minimal pay and don't complain, would be EVEN BETTER SERVED by capturing regular Timmins citizens at gunpoint, and have them flip burgers while in chains for no pay other than basic food until they die of old age (*if* that was allowed.)

It should be obvious that some people could benefit from a policy even if it has had an overall disastrous effect on society. Everyone here already knows who these international students have benefitted, so I’m not sure what Locos post was meant to do. Are we supposed to feel the warm and fuzzies that his family was to take some time off because the slaves were holding down the fort at home? He really missed the mark if so, because I felt nothing but contempt.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by theman23

It should be obvious that some people could benefit from a policy even if it has had an overall disastrous effect on society.

I'm a prime example of this, as I greatly benefit from skyhigh rents + 0% vacancy rates + skyhigh homelessness + tenants who shut up and tolerate anything because they're deathly afraid of becoming homeless, yet I will readily admit it's bad overall (while great for me), and that from a pure detached outsider's analysis point of view, JT's Scheme is awful policy.

Hope you don't feel as much contempt for me as you do for him, the difference being that I'm fully aware it's bad policy, and didn't cause it

On a related note, I just finished a large construction project that cost me more in labor than I had planned, which sucks, I would have loved to be able to use slave labor instead. (The employees were all unionized construction professionals, not cheap per hour at all, yet not very competent, strangely...)

Loco's relative is lucky to be in a business sector that allows Indentured Servants; the construction industry here in Quebec certainly doesn't.

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Loco101

It's a pro-business move that has been taken. The current policy has certainly helped with the labour shortages in the service industry and probably prevented a lot of business closures due to keeping costs down and also having enough employees to operate.

A family member of mine who owns a restaurant has taken advantage of being able to get students from India as employees which has helped him a lot. He has also hired local Timmins people as well as he doesn't want to favour any particular type of person. And I have to add that he is no fan of the Trudeau government. He has been able to hire people from India with university degrees. He hired a supervisor who has a master's degree, is very intelligent and friendly and has restaurant experience in the UK. The local people he hired who are 18 or over all turned out to be poor workers with addiction issues and/or not showing up for shifts. He and his wife are able to take some days off because he has the Indian employees that he can rely on. This wouldn't be the case if he had to hire only local people.

It's funny how a supposedly progressive NDP supporter can spin this as a feel good story. This story is absolutely devastating to the local Canadian working class, and the NDP has completely abandoned them.

It also explains why Canadian productivity is so low. If the best use of this gentleman with a master's degree (assuming his educational credentials are legitimate) is for him to displace locals from low skilled labour positions and to suppress wages to the benefit of the employer (who otherwise wouldn't stay afloat without artificially depressed wages), then there's something seriously wrong and ethically questionable about Trudeau's immigration policies.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Why are you trying to muddy the waters with "North America" when Lio gave you StatsCan data? That's some bad faith BS.

Lio conclusion that Canada gained only 400,000 jobs last year so there for that is the effect of 1.2 million immigrants to Canada is erroneous because he is omitting the possibility that Canada would have had major job loses without the 1.2 million immigrations last year.

For example, Canada could have had 500,000 jobs lose without those 1.2 million immigrants so although the net jobs were 400,000, the total effects of immigrants could have been the creation of 900,000 jobs in this example. so just saying Canada immigrants only created 400,000 jobs is erroneous.

Canada unemployment rate on Jan 2022 was 6.4% and 6.0% in April 2024.
population growth over the same timeframe was 2.5 million, so i would conclude that immigrations creates at least 1 job for ever immigrant worker.
This is also why wage suppression doesn't occur with immigration as they create as many jobs as they take up as evident by Canada high wage growth over the same timeframe.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is no doubt employers prefer foreign students or temporary foreign workers over local employees for low-skill jobs. They work harder for less money and talk back less.

However, the Government's job is to take into account the overall needs of the country, not just the preference of employers.

When these TFWs were confined to export industries like agriculture it made sense. Taking away jobs from kids and disadvantaged but less productive workers so Tim Hortons and McDonalds can make more money is honestly shameful no matter what your politics. The latter groups are exactly the people they claim to care about with their woke dystopia. I guess words rather than actions shouldn't be surprising.

For students. It also made sense when they paid $30k in tuition and another $20k in living expenses and worked a few hours getting experience, helping employers and supplementing their income so they could enjoy life here more (since they had already proven they had the $50k a year) Fake students with fake income statements (or do they even ask anymore) can provide cheap labour and some income for $ starved colleges but otherwise are disastrous for everyone else. It's been obvious to everyone for a long time and even the changes they have made are not dramatic enough to right the ship. I am not confident the Cons will do much. Both because of the business and landlord lobby but also fear of being labelled racist.