What is it like to come home to Canada?

[P'tit Renard]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Did you bother to take 5 minutes to even read the Times article from 2022? Lists all of the major companies making expansions in downtown Toronto.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/t...tech-boom.html

This article is quite outdated by now, Toronto was hit quite hard by the 2023 rounds of tech layoffs that continues today.

Microsoft's new office was mainly to move its HQ from Mississauga. It's not a substantial expansion.

Google's new office was mainly to move from its old digs at Richmond Adelaide centre. Google has not moved any of its top priority projects to be based in Canada, and are still overwhelmingly concentrated in Silicon Valley. Geoffrey Hinton probably was the highest profile Google employee up here, but he quit in 2023.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sure, there is probably some selection bias (those who stayed are those who did well, those who did not went back home) but the stories I've heard from that era (friends, neighbours, colleagues) are about people not being able to hack the winters or being homesick. Not about not being able to get ahead socio-economically.

So I wonder if immigrants who are younger (say, under 50) would say the same thing about Canada today.

Has it lived up to their expectations or (gasp!) their dreams?

Because it sure as hell did for those older people.

Some of you guys should seek them out and talk to them if you doubt what I am saying.

We know they don't say the same thing, because more of them are actually leaving and fewer of them are taking citizenship. If you understand how valuable a Western passport is to an Indian or Chinese migrant, the fact that they won't put up with 4-5 years to get that passport says a lot.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

That's the same here, as 1177 is also a portal through which you can access your labs, journal, prescriptions, stuff like that. But anything chronic is far better with a doctor with whom you have some sort of relationship, I think. They know you, they have a sense of proportion and need.

Agreed, though even for those with a family doctor (it's our case in my household) it's increasingly rare that you actually see them. At least in Quebec.

Our doctor we typically see once a year (sometimes every 2 years) for a routine checkup. But other than that, she is part of a GMF (groupe de médicine familiale) and because we have her we are part of it too and can see any doctor in the group by booking an appointment on a website.

So if I need penicillin unless I roll double-sixes I am not getting it from my doctor but from one of her colleagues.

Of course she gets a record of my visits to her colleagues and it's all on file when she does see me - and she may ask me questions about such and such an issue.

Still, the days of Marcus Welby-style medical accompaniment are over.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Some of you guys should seek them out and talk to them if you doubt what I am saying.

I know two "immigrant" families in Vancouver; One from Hungary and the other Poland, both of whom came in the early 90's. They got blue collar jobs and were able to buy houses (now paid off) and now are retired (or nearing retirement). So, yeah they did well and speak glowingly of Canada. But interestingly enough, one familiy had 2 kids and the other 1 kid: all of whom now live and work in the US.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Thinking about immigrants, and how all of the older immigrants I know (let's say 65 and older) are quite glowing about Canada and the opportunities they got here. It worked very well for them. (Though yes some are concerned about the current direction, but all have great things to say overall about the period up until maybe 10 years ago or so.)

...

So I wonder if immigrants who are younger (say, under 50) would say the same thing about Canada today.

Has it lived up to their expectations or (gasp!) their dreams?

Because it sure as hell did for those older people.

Some of you guys should seek them out and talk to them if you doubt what I am saying.

I think of the current Mayor of Edmonton, Amarjeet Sohi.
He came to Canada from India with not much to his name at 17-18, in 1981. Worked for Edmonton Transit, got married, built a life, got elected as a City Councillor, then became a Member of Parliament, and now 4 decades later is Mayor of one of Canada's largest cities with over 1 million people and quickly growing.

That's the Canadian dream exemplified. I don't know if those arriving in 2024 can achieve the same. A lot harder for them, probably.
Calgary now has its 2nd South Asian Mayor, and first female Mayor, Jyoti Gondek.

• Video Link

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I didn't think you were making it up or being dishonest. I was expressing skepticism at the framing, which is more down to the journalist than you.

My apologies for overreacting

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I think of the current Mayor of Edmonton, Amarjeet Sohi.
He came to Canada from India with not much to his name at 17-18, in 1981. Worked for Edmonton Transit, got married, built a life, got elected as a City Councillor, then became a Member of Parliament, and now 4 decades later is Mayor of one of Canada's largest cities with over 1 million people and quickly growing.

That's the Canadian dream exemplified. I don't know if those arriving in 2024 can achieve the same. A lot harder for them, probably.
Calgary now has its 2nd South Asian Mayor, and first female Mayor, Jyoti Gondek.

• Video Link

That's a great story. We'd be dangerously foolish to start making it impossible to realize.

[Truenorth00]

His story is great marketing material for all the strip mall colleges preying on eager young immigrant students.

[lio45]

Meh, anyone can get elected to some office, the problem is that by definition those are a tiny % of the jobs available.

So, one immigrant from India managed to get elected mayor of a Big Six Canadian city. Now there are five other such spots left ... The remaining ones can work at Tim's.

A better metric is how well these immigrants are doing on average. Don't show me THE one guy who managed to get elected to a visible position, show me all the ones who did reasonably well.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

That's a great story. We'd be dangerously foolish to start making it impossible to realize.

The odds of getting elected to a visible / prominent office (mayor of a large city, Premier of a province, etc.) have always been ridiculously low. It's always been borderline "impossible to realize".

We'd be dangerously foolish to start making it so a large percentage of the suckers we bring in are stuck in dead end jobs and bad living arrangements (15 to an apartment). It didn't use to be like that.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by lio45

Meh, anyone can get elected to some office, the problem is that by definition those are a tiny % of the jobs available.

So, one immigrant from India managed to get elected mayor of a Big Six Canadian city. Now there are five other such spots left ... The remaining ones can work at Tim's.

A better metric is how well these immigrants are doing on average. Don't show me THE one guy who managed to get elected to a visible position, show me all the ones who did reasonably well.

It's like telling kids in the hood, their best shot in life is playing basketball instead of hitting the books. How many make it to the NBA?

[Wigs]

First off end the strip mall private fly-by-night diploma mills. It's bonkers they are allowed to exist when they basically just steal money from international students

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

It's like telling kids in the hood, their best shot in life is playing basketball instead of hitting the books. How many make it to the NBA?

That's not how I meant my post to be at all and I don't know why you and lio wanted to misconstrue it like that.

My post was a reply to Acajack, to celebrate this man's made a huge success of his life and part of his success is a city like Edmonton in a nation like Canada giving him a chance to achieve. He had to do the work and climb that ladder, but Edmontonians gave him the opportunity.

Way different than having a unique athletic skill with a 0.03% chance of attaining any professional level league, even much less chance for NBA.
http://thesportdigest.com/archive/ar...32%20women%20(.

[O-tacular]

Naheed Nenshi would be another example. The current TFW system and college mills are bad but I don’t think Wigs was defending those.

[Acajack]

Yeah becoming mayor of Edmonton is the cherry on top but it's actually the rest of his life in Canada that should be most inspirational.

Originally Posted by Wigs

That's not how I meant my post to be at all and I don't know why you and lio wanted to misconstrue it like that.

My post was a reply to Acajack, to celebrate this man's made a huge success of his life and part of his success is a city like Edmonton in a nation like Canada giving him a chance to achieve. He had to do the work and climb that ladder, but Edmontonians gave him the opportunity.

Way different than having a unique athletic skill with a 0.03% chance of attaining any professional level league, even much less chance for NBA.
http://thesportdigest.com/archive/ar...32%20women%20(.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

First off end the strip mall private fly-by-night diploma mills. It's bonkers they are allowed to exist when they basically just steal money from international students

It's not just strip mall colleges (some of which are contracted out by public colleges and universities). A lot of public colleges and universities are offering less rigorous 1 yr programs so they can make bank too.

Originally Posted by Wigs

That's not how I meant my post to be at all and I don't know why you and lio wanted to misconstrue it like that.

My post was a reply to Acajack, to celebrate this man's made a huge success of his life and part of his success is a city like Edmonton in a nation like Canada giving him a chance to achieve. He had to do the work and climb that ladder, but Edmontonians gave him the opportunity.

Way different than having a unique athletic skill with a 0.03% chance of attaining any professional level league, even much less chance for NBA.
http://thesportdigest.com/archive/ar...32%20women%20(.

To be clear, I love his story. And I absolutely agree that he's the Canadian dream. But when we get all nostalgic about these stories, we tend to forget and ignore the fact that today's young immigrants don't have the same opportunity. Pointing to successes like Sohi is kinda dishonest.

[Wigs]

It was in reply to Acajack about former immigrants now Canadians in their 60s and the opportunities they had to create amazing lives.

I mentioned that I don't know if those arriving in 2024 can achieve the same that it's probably a lot harder for them today, and then you and lio made a mockery of it.

No wonder I choose to spend less and less time in the Canadian sub forums.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by Wigs

First off end the strip mall private fly-by-night diploma mills. It's bonkers they are allowed to exist when they basically just steal money from international students

They don't steal from them they steal from us. We could easily charge $100k +for a 5 year work permit leading to PR. Instead the College charges them $50k and we charge a $1000 or whatever a visa costs. It's great deal for the student. People are literally paying that to climb into a raft with a 10% chance of death.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I mentioned that I don't know if those arriving in 2024 can achieve the same that it's probably a lot harder for them today, and then you and lio made a mockery of it.

Well, he wasn't a very good example, as Edmonton WILL have a mayor in 2050 (only one, though) and this person may well be someone who's just arriving these days and (for now) driving an Uber while having 15 roommates.

What's problematic with the Scheme is that the % of people who get a fair shot at getting near the top (as Sohi did) is a lot lower than it used to be. There aren't enough opportunities in Canada to be able to give opportunities to ~1.7M new people every single year, even if they're all disciplined and hard working.

You can still do it, it's just a lot less likely that any one given person will manage to, on a per capita basis.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Google, Apple, Microsoft, twitter, others have been forced to increase their Canadian offices and workforce in the past 5 or so years. (And yes I'm aware of the fairly recent tech slowdown in North America and mass layoffs).
Microsoft's shiny new offices in one of the new CIBC towers is an example.

But hey I don't work in the industry, I just read a lot

Forced to? Canada is just a convenient offloading port for foreign tech workers since Trump made it harder to get them into the USA.