ATLANTA | Development Thread VI

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

I think you all need to inspect the article a bit more closely. It clearly says that there is 10,500 sqft of "creative" office space. That does not mean retail or restaurants.

Long term plans have the street car running down North Avenue and buildings being constructed now should anticipate that. We need more retail and restaurants to engage North Avenue - office space not so much.

Creative office, commercial, retail...whatever it ends up being is better than just a leasing office or apartment fitness space that cannot be adapted for retail/restaurant use down the road as well.

Do you seriously think a retail/restaurant presence on such a steep grade will be that successful here otherwise?

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

Creative office, commercial, retail...whatever it ends up being is better than just a leasing office or apartment fitness space that cannot be adapted for retail/restaurant use down the road as well.

Do you seriously think a retail/restaurant presence on such a steep grade will be that successful here otherwise?

I'm with you with okay with any type of active space. As for would a retail/restaurant space work here with the grade? Absolutely, especially as new development comes across Arnold, across North Ave, and closer to /along Boulevard. Residences are coming and they will want a place to spend time, mingle, and access goods. Not everyone wants to eat/visit a giant food hall that closes early.

[arctk2014]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

I'm with you with okay with any type of active space. As for would a retail/restaurant space work here with the grade? Absolutely, especially as new development comes across Arnold, across North Ave, and closer to /along Boulevard. Residences are coming and they will want a place to spend time, mingle, and access goods. Not everyone wants to eat/visit a giant food hall that closes early.

So is your biggest gripe that it's not already deemed a restaurant or retail space today and just labeled as creative office/commercial space (or whatever it's marketed as right now) instead?

Lest we forget there are more options coming to the area that aren't at PCM.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

I think you all need to inspect the article a bit more closely. It clearly says that there is 10,500 sqft of "creative" office space. That does not mean retail or restaurants.

Long term plans have the street car running down North Avenue and buildings being constructed now should anticipate that. We need more retail and restaurants to engage North Avenue - office space not so much.

Playing devil's advocate here. Looking at the North Ave area, realistically how much density will the area produce in the future when it is predominately single family homes and/or townhouses? Net, net - In my opinion, the North Ave corridor at best will only achieve a density similar to VA Highlands. How successful do you think retailers/restaurants would be if every block had to have a retail component on every block in the Highlands? Not very successful in my opinion.

Does that mean I am advocating for no retail requirements on North Ave - NO. I think it should be modeled similar to how the Highlands retail is concentrated see second pic below. If you look at the first pic, I believe the the blue square I highlighted offers the most "(re)development" potential along the North Ave Streetcar route to mandate x% of the gross square feet be dedicated to retail.

When I ask myself the question: What is worse, (A) an area not having street level retail on every block, but concentrated <or> (B) an area that is littered with empty/under utilized street retail? I say the latter (B) and I can guarantee you that will be the case if the zoning requires every new commercial or multi-family development have a retail component in this area.

Re: Concerning the streetcar - it is my belief it will only be used by people trying to get from MARTA to Ponce City Market/Beltline. I suspect much of the North Ave area will not see much of any economic impact.

Again this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. However, I would like to hear some defensible counterpoints.

[Street Advocate]

A lot of new development for the corridor will also happen along Ponce. We are talking about potentially adding a few thousand residences when looking at both streets between PCM and North Ave station.

North Ave streetcar also opens the door for more on the west side of Atlanta to be employees on the east side. While I do not imagine ridership will be massive it’s first few years, I think the route will be vital in Atlanta’s long term transit plan.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by arctk2014

So is your biggest gripe that it's not already deemed a restaurant or retail space today and just labeled as creative office/commercial space (or whatever it's marketed as right now) instead?

Lest we forget there are more options coming to the area that aren't at PCM.

Think you are quoting the wrong person? I said I am glad it’s an active use and specifically listed the new entertainment locations coming to the area west of the beltline.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

A lot of new development for the corridor will also happen along Ponce. We are talking about potentially adding a few thousand residences when looking at both streets between PCM and North Ave station.

North Ave streetcar also opens the door for more on the west side of Atlanta to be employees on the east side. While I do not imagine ridership will be massive it’s first few years, I think the route will be vital in Atlanta’s long term transit plan.

So the question for you and everyone else: If you were in a position today to be scouting for sites for your retail store and/or restaurant, how likely would you select a location along North Ave compared to West Midtown, Highland, Ormwood, L5P...etc?

More importantly, do you see North Ave being vibrant/dense enough today/future to justify mandating every new commercial and/or multi-family development include a retail component and for it be written into the zoning code for North Ave today?

[Neighbor]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

Playing devil's advocate here. Looking at the North Ave area, realistically how much density will the area produce in the future when it is predominately single family homes and/or townhouses? Net, net - In my opinion, the North Ave corridor at best will only achieve a density similar to VA Highlands. How successful do you think retailers/restaurants would be if every block had to have a retail component on every block in the Highlands? Not very successful in my opinion.

Does that mean I am advocating for no retail requirements on North Ave - NO. I think it should be modeled similar to how the Highlands retail is concentrated see second pic below. If you look at the first pic, I believe the the blue square I highlighted offers the most "(re)development" potential along the North Ave Streetcar route to mandate x% of the gross square feet be dedicated to retail.

When I ask myself the question: What is worse, (A) an area not having street level retail on every block, but concentrated <or> (B) an area that is littered with empty/under utilized street retail? I say the latter (B) and I can guarantee you that will be the case if the zoning requires every new commercial or multi-family development have a retail component in this area.

Re: Concerning the streetcar - it is my belief it will only be used by people trying to get from MARTA to Ponce City Market/Beltline. I suspect much of the North Ave area will not see much of any economic impact.

Again this is my opinion and everyone is entitled to their own. However, I would like to hear some defensible counterpoints.

I'm not advocating that every single development have some retail component - indeed nearly all of the existing residential buildings lack it. However, I do believe that we should be encouraging new developments to incorporate some retail component. Aside from PCM, the area is a virtual retail desert. Yes, Ponce is nearby, but that's really just a bunch of fast-food restaurants.

The previous development that was slated for this lot was going to bring TWO restaurant concepts. Surely this location could accommodate one, especially with native clientele living above.

I also think your anticipated view of the North Avenue corridor is a bit understated. If the best they can hope for is VaHi levels of density, then why bother with the street car? VaHi isn't slated to get it.

Inb4 VaHi is along the beltline. So is O4W.

I do agree with your view that the area around North and Central Park will develop into a node unto itself, but that does not preclude other areas of North from having retail. A small sandwich shop or a cafe in new buildings would be enough to satisfy me. The area has a complete dearth of quality affordable fast casual. It needs retail and services to support everyday needs, not just weekend shoppers.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Neighbor

However, I do believe that we should be encouraging new developments to incorporate some retail component.

How do you propose the CoA "encourage" retail components w/o mandating them? Honest question.

Originally Posted by Neighbor

I also think your anticipated view of the North Avenue corridor is a bit understated. If the best they can hope for is VaHi levels of density, then why bother with the street car?

Midtown will shortly have tens of thousands of residents, workers and tourist and the North Ave. street car will be the most efficient way to get to Ponce City Market, 750 Ponce, GA Power site in O4W and the Beltline. I would suspect even the most optimistic Atlanta urban planners would agree 85% of the ridership for the North Ave streetcar will only be going to these destinations, but I could be wrong.

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

So the question for you and everyone else: If you were in a position today to be scouting for sites for your retail store and/or restaurant, how likely would you select a location along North Ave compared to West Midtown, Highland, Ormwood, L5P...etc?

This is a fair question. Some* of the aforementioned neighborhoods have enough competition that drive it as a node that attracts individuals to the area. That said, new businesses in O4W could receive lower rents than say Midtown, West Midtown, or Virginia Highland (pure speculation on my end) and being one of few restaurant/dining options in the immediate vicinity. I'm willing to bet others would take the risk of places like Glen Iris, North Ave, and Ralph McGill receiving far more foottraffic in the near future due to the amount of developments and lack of neighborhood options at the moment.

[Atlanta3000]

Originally Posted by Street Advocate

This is a fair question. Some* of the aforementioned neighborhoods have enough competition that drive it as a node that attracts individuals to the area. That said, new businesses in O4W could receive lower rents than say Midtown, West Midtown, or Virginia Highland (pure speculation on my end) and being one of few restaurant/dining options in the immediate vicinity. I'm willing to bet others would take the risk of places like Glen Iris, North Ave, and Ralph McGill receiving far more foottraffic in the near future due to the amount of developments and lack of neighborhood options at the moment.

Don't count on leasing rates on North Ave being too dissimilar to the other locations if we are talking NEW properties at either location. It costs a developer the same amount of money to build a project (in terms of labor and materials costs) anywhere in the city. The only variable is land costs.

Your logic makes sense - to a point, the North Ave location "potentially" offers less risk because there is a lack of competition today and for the foreseeable future. However, if you locate there you have to go into it believing the local neighborhood/in walking distance is enough to sustain your business. No offense SA, but I am not going to sit in traffic, Uber to North Ave to patronize your dive bar from my Buckhead bubble unless you comp my bar tab.

Not to be disagreeable (yeah right!), but I have a different perspective. First, very few restaurants/retailers can survive today when your target market is confined to neighborhood residents/foot traffic (except in larger cities). Customers today can order most necessities/luxuries online and get them in in 2 hours and at most 2 days. Also the online competition will only be increasing in the future.

So take my perspective with a grain of salt, seeing as how I come from a Dynasty of White Trailer Trash and cheap men, but that is neither here nor there. With that said, my opinion is a 180 from yours. Its is my belief, consumers today are attracted more to experiences and destinations with respect to retail/restaurants - i.e. mixed-use developments. That is why areas with concentrations of this are more likely to be successful than standalone locations. The bottom line....if your product/service is good enough, competition is primarily an advantage because it will drive more traffic to your location. Make sense?

[daharris80]

RetailMarketAnalysis.skyscraperpage.com

[Atlanta3000]

atlantahasNOnewsunlessIpostit.forum.skyscraperpage.com

[Street Advocate]

Originally Posted by daharris80

RetailMarketAnalysis.skyscraperpage.com

We have a short attention span when new projects are not being announced or breaking ground.

[pawelra]

Originally Posted by Atlanta3000

atlantahasNOnewsunlessIpostit.forum.skyscraperpage.com

Tou are not the only one posting news here

[ATL CTO]

Images from inside Icon in Midtown. Really excited to move in soon.

[ATL_J]

I think people are underestimating how much retail is in the area and where further concentrations of retail can appear. Even in aspirational analogs such as the District (think U Street, 14th, 17th, etc) retail is concentrated along certain roads and in certain nodes. Ponce has tons of retail, and maybe it isn't all trendy restaurants and shops now, but it is retail. Currently there is a ton of retail at PCM, there will be more at 725 Ponce. Not to mention that between 725 Ponce and where Two Urban Licks / New Realm Brewing is turning into a little BeltLine-retail corridor. Then you have the node on Ralph McGill, the Masquerade redevelopment, and there will be space at North + Line. Furthermore, you have entire Georgia Power site redevelopment which surely will include some retail component. So really, there is a ton of retail, all within walking distance, and roughly a 5-15 minute walk further there are other areas such as Inman Park.

The area can only support so much retail on its own. I think people would be surprised at how many households it takes to support a single restaurant, let alone massive concentrations of retail, and with new developments occurring in previously underserved markets (think Atlanta Dairies, Madison Yards, Georgia Avenue, all the stuff along Memorial) there will be less drive-to demand for these retailers unless they're offering some unique dry-good that fills a gap.

[3yonce]

A new draft of the Downtown Atlanta Master Plan has been posted.

[Pemgin]

According to Opus's Facebook page, there was an official groundbreaking today at 2pm and also a video of them detonating bedrock. I don't see the video anywhere, though.

[Jacobguy]

Originally Posted by Pemgin

According to Opus's Facebook page, there was an official groundbreaking today at 2pm and also a video of them detonating bedrock. I don't see the video anywhere, though.

They posted it on their Instagram Story, you can actually hear them mention about not knowing how to stream for Facebook Live haha.
http://instagram.com/opusplaceatlanta