Highways in Canada

[wave46]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Highway 17 from the international bridge in the Soo to highway 417 should be 4 lanes. Highway 11 between North Bay and Nipigon should also be 4 lanes. 17 between the Soo and Nipigon? Leave it.

In a perfect world of infinite money, sure. As the fiscal reality of Ontario stands today, no way. Bypassing the towns along 17 and making improvements to the alignment of sections that need it is about the best I can condone in the reality of today.

[jmt18325]

4 lanes is a waste of money for most of that drive on either road. North Bay to Saulte Ste Marie? Sure. The areas where there is only 1 road? Sure. Otherwise? Upgraded passing lanes, bypasses, and realignments when necessary.

[FFX-ME]

I personally think it should be twinned from Ottawa to the Soo, the rest should be upgraded to a super-2 so the speed limit can be increased to facilitate travel and reduce the bleeding of travelers to the US.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

I personally think it should be twinned from Ottawa to the Soo, the rest should be upgraded to a super-2 so the speed limit can be increased to facilitate travel and reduce the bleeding of travelers to the US.

I don't really care if the speed limit is increased, to be honest. Yes, the speed limit is 90, but the fines only start at 110, so....

On the other hand, Ontario could up the speed limit on most of it to 100 with a simple policy change.

As for upgrading it all the way from Ottawa to the Soo - it's not needed. From Petawawa to almost North Bay there is very little traffic.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

I personally think it should be twinned from Ottawa to the Soo, the rest should be upgraded to a super-2 so the speed limit can be increased to facilitate travel and reduce the bleeding of travelers to the US.

The stretch from North Bay - Petawawa is pretty lightly trafficked. Given the terrain involved and the AADT, it isn't worth it.

[1overcosc]

The 417 should be extended eastward as a full 400-series freeway (ie. full grade separation) to Petawawa or maybe Deep River. From there to North Bay, leave it as is, maybe add a few passing lanes, because traffic there is very, very low.

Between North Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, twin it, but not as an expensive 400-series freeway, but rather as a Prairie-style "dual carriageway", that only puts interchanges at key junctions and leaves most minor roads with at-grade intersections. Do this for the segments between Nipigon and Shabaqua, and from Kenora to the Manitoba border, as well. Leave the rest alone, again with some more passing lanes.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by wave46

In a perfect world of infinite money, sure. As the fiscal reality of Ontario stands today, no way. Bypassing the towns along 17 and making improvements to the alignment of sections that need it is about the best I can condone in the reality of today.

The financial aspect of the cost of twinning is very relevant. Consider for a moment that Nova Scotia plans to twin 78km of highway for $390 million.

Right now, contractors are twinning ~15km of Highway 69 over the French and Pickeral Rivers through a contract that is valued at $197 million.

Nova Scotia can twin it's highways for $5 Million per kilometre, where in northern Ontario it's in excess of $10 million per kilometre. (The 15km currently under construction on Hwy 69 is at 13.1 million per kilometre, but it's a bit more of an expensive section than most).

It's easy to defend upgrading the highways (it's actually something that I generally agree with), but one can't ignore the immense cost of doing so. Further, one shouldn't ignore the immense investment that is, today, ongoing in northern Ontario. Not-insignificant amounts of money are being spent.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Between North Bay and Sault Ste. Marie, twin it, but not as an expensive 400-series freeway, but rather as a Prairie-style "dual carriageway", that only puts interchanges at key junctions and leaves most minor roads with at-grade intersections. Do this for the segments between Nipigon and Shabaqua, and from Kenora to the Manitoba border, as well. Leave the rest alone, again with some more passing lanes.

I would say that the same should be done for all concurrent (11/17) sections around Thunder Bay. To be fair though, that's already underway.

[MalcolmTucker]

3 lanes are pretty reasonable. Create and put up median rails or cables where there is a history of head-ons.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

3 lanes are pretty reasonable. Create and put up median rails or cables where there is a history of head-ons.

Manitoba has had huge success on a section of Highway 6 that had quite a few head-ons by simply adding rumble strips on each side of the centre line.

[Loco101]

Again, I feel that making the Sultan Industrial Road, a main logging road between Hwy 129 and Hwy 144, should be looked at as a project of federal interest and be a part of the Trans-Canada system having a more direct connection from Sudbury to Wawa.

There would need to be upgrades to Hwys 101 and 144 but would not be extremely expensive as the terrain is actually pretty good for Northern Ontario. The real expenses would be around Greater Sudbury with interchanges. By-passes around Chelmsford and Dowling are currently being studied which would definitely be needed.

That route would make things less challenging for transports as they could avoid in big hills in Algoma. They would still have some hills North of Superior but not nearly as challenging I think.

[FFX-ME]

What would be the point in having a direct link from Wawa to Sudburry? Wawa is not a large city like Soo or Sudburry. I think the 17 and 11 already do a good job at connecting the large cities and the two halves of the country, they're just a tad slow.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

What would be the point in having a direct link from Wawa to Sudburry? Wawa is not a large city like Soo or Sudburry. I think the 17 and 11 already do a good job at connecting the large cities and the two halves of the country, they're just a tad slow.

The route via the Sultan Road is over 100km shorter compared to Hwy 17. The Sultan Road connection would shave an hour of travel time off of the trip.

The Sultan Road is currently a private road with public access and is managed by the forestry industry.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The route via the Sultan Road is over 100km shorter compared to Hwy 17. The Sultan Road connection would shave an hour of travel time off of the trip.

The Sultan Road is currently a private road with public access and is managed by the forestry industry.

It would improve access to Thunder Bay and Western Canada to traffic coming both from the east and the south, as it eliminates the circuitous and weather-prone stretches of 17 east and west of the Sault, near the lakes.

[swimmer_spe]

Sometimes 4 laning is not done due to the amount of traffic, but due to the safety of travelers.

Heavy truck traffic means that passing lanes are not enough.

I have been on 17 on a motorcycle. There were 4 trucks in front of me. We get to the passing lane, all 3 trucks move over to pass the one truck AT THE SAME TIME!

[jmt18325]

The answer there is more frequent and longer passing lanes, not wasted billions.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

The answer there is more frequent and longer passing lanes, not wasted billions.

and can always flag only certain extract long passing lanes as more than 3 axles compatible.

[manny_santos]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The route via the Sultan Road is over 100km shorter compared to Hwy 17. The Sultan Road connection would shave an hour of travel time off of the trip.

The Sultan Road is currently a private road with public access and is managed by the forestry industry.

I believe the province owns a short section of it as Highway 667.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by manny_santos

I believe the province owns a short section of it as Highway 667.

667 is the road from Hwy 129 to Sultan, but it's not the same as the Sultan Industrial Road. The Sultan Industrial Road branches off Hwy 667 a short distance west of the community of Sultan.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by wave46

If there was one route through northern Ontario, I'd be more supportive of serious upgrades. Traffic is split though and it becomes a question of allocation of resources.

Personally, I'd recommend working on bypassing the small towns along the Sault-North Bay corridor improving the alignment on that stretch. It offers the best value for money and benefits the most people.

The rural sections are least deserving of improvements, with the exception of 17 from Thunder Bay-Manitoba, as it handles all cross-country traffic.

17 from Shabaqua Corners to east of Kenora does have an alternate (11/71) although it takes longer and is of lower standard in sections. But I agree the sections with no alternates - Nipigon to Shabaqua and Kenora to Manitoba - need to be high priorities for twinning. Even though North Bay to Sault Ste. Marie has an alternate, traffic volumes are higher there (combined with more forgiving terrain) in the most populated area of northern Ontario.

Agreed that interchanges are overkill for now at most locations (although planning should be made for such). Anywhere that a signal is warranted, or will be in the planning horizon, should have an interchange though, as should anywhere that staging is not reasonably possible (example being from North Bay to Sturgeon Falls).

In the case of Petawawa to Arnprior, that would probably have to be built to freeway standards right away since EVERY intersection warrants signalization. There are a few sections near Sudbury where such is also the case.