Canadian Retail Thread

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting how resistant the Canadian marketplace generally is to those types of 'in between' sized grocers... the ones that, like Carrefour City, are maybe double the size of a 7-Eleven but still manage to offer pretty well a full range of groceries. I suppose there must be some reason for it, but you would think there would be some room between tiny convenience stores and conventional full sized supermarkets.

The Vancouver area has a lot of these kinds of stores. IGA is a small-format, urban, full-service grocery store. They're often in the base of midrise condos with about 30 parking spots in the basement. Then there's Urban Fare, and for non-groceries, there's London Drugs which sells everything from home electronics to cookware. It's like a mini-Wal Mart, and they're very urban focused. Also, Vancouver is just good at slotting mid and large-sized retail into condo podiums. You can see No Frills, Whole Foods, Save On, Canadian Tire and even Costco at the base of condo towers with a street entrance for customers on foot.

As for Starbucks, it does seem that their star is fading. The only people I know who get excited for it are those in their 40s who came of age in the 90s when Starbucks had some real brand cachet. To younger people, I get the impression that Starbucks is basically like McDonald's to them... a familiar place you can go to in a pinch.

Yeah. They had a bit of a boost in the last few years with their Pumpkin Spice Latte offering, which appealed to a lot of *ahem* basic girls, but they lost out on the PSL season because of the pandemic.

Also, nobody goes out of their way to go to a Starbucks - it's usually something you do between appointments - and this year nobody was traveling between appointments.

[Jeff]

Like has been mentioned in other instances in other cities already, the major uptick and embrace of local coffee shops in Winnipeg has definitely had a noticeable effect on whatever Starbucks were left in the inner-city areas of of this burg. I'd way rather spend $5 on a latte from a local joint than soulless Starbucks and I'm definitely not alone. Several centrally-located Starbucks/ coffee chains have ceased operations recently while the locally-owned coffee shops down the road are doing brisk business even during the pandemic. No tears lost on this turn of events on my part.

[Ozabald]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Indeed... Montreal's coffee culture goes back several decades while Ottawa's has been developing only since the early 80s. Having said that, locally-owned coffee shops are growing like crazy in Ottawa (Bridgehead, Crazy Cow, etc) just like the rest of the foodie scene and I think that Starbucks is on shaky ground in that city as well.

Sadly, Bridgehead is no longer locally owned as it was acquired in 2019 by Aegis Brands (aka: Second Cup).

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Van Houtte is a pretty big (local) chain player in the Montreal area. At first glance they have as many if not more locations than Starbucks.

Ah interesting. We have Van Houte here too but they supply coffee at a gas station (Chevron) as opposed to a stand alone coffee shop.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by esquire

It's interesting how resistant the Canadian marketplace generally is to those types of 'in between' sized grocers... the ones that, like Carrefour City, are maybe double the size of a 7-Eleven but still manage to offer pretty well a full range of groceries. I suppose there must be some reason for it, but you would think there would be some room between tiny convenience stores and conventional full sized supermarkets.

As for Starbucks, it does seem that their star is fading. The only people I know who get excited for it are those in their 40s who came of age in the 90s when Starbucks had some real brand cachet. To younger people, I get the impression that Starbucks is basically like McDonald's to them... a familiar place you can go to in a pinch.

Starbucks has been doing a huge pullout from the City of Vancouver. They've said their "post-pandemic" strategy is stores with drive-thrus (no longer allowed in Vancouver) but a lot of the locations they closed were fairly busy. They don't break out Canada results from US ones so it is difficult to see how big their drop in sales might have been.

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Anyone had coffee at a Starbucks Reserve?

Yes, it is much better than their conventional brews, but not much different from quality beans at a local roaster. The price is definitely higher than what a local cafe in Edmonton would charge.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Ozabald

Sadly, Bridgehead is no longer locally owned as it was acquired in 2019 by Aegis Brands (aka: Second Cup).

Happy Goat is still locally-owned, no?

[Harrison]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Like Aldi and Lidl? That would fill a gap in Canada.

I would love to see Aldi open in Canada. Been to stores in the US and Australia and I find their cost-quality ratio for food superior to the big grocery chains here.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Yeah. They had a bit of a boost in the last few years with their Pumpkin Spice Latte offering, which appealed to a lot of *ahem* basic girls, but they lost out on the PSL season because of the pandemic.

Starbucks sold a record number of Pumpkin Spice drinks this year, even with the pandemic.

Pumpkin Spice has been around for almost 20 years so it’s not a recent “boost”.

As for the closures, it’s a changing business strategy away from “a Starbucks on every corner” so as to increase profitability. When you close for example 1 of 2 nearby locations, you transfer some but not all sales from the closed location while cutting a good chunk of your fixed costs in half, thus turning a higher profit. It was not a reflection of decreasing sales, although that has naturally occurred during the pandemic. It is, moreover, seemingly in line with a vision that post-pandemic habits will change, office workers will not all be returning to downtown cores, etc.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

As for the closures, it’s a changing business strategy away from “a Starbucks on every corner” so as to increase profitability.

In the past Starbucks was accused of over-saturating local markets at a loss to eliminate smaller competitors. This would be the end game for that strategy. I don't know if it's what actually happened, and a lot of the 90's style fancier-than-normal-for-their-era coffee shops that predate Starbucks seem to have survived while some new places have sprung up.

FWIW the Starbucks near me has had a 2 m spaced lineup out the door most times I've gone during the pandemic.

On a related note I've been amused by the Tim Hortons locations that reopened the distanced dining areas to have 1 senior sit at each of the 2 tables for hours on end.

[dreambrother808]

Originally Posted by someone123

In the past Starbucks was accused of over-saturating local markets at a loss to eliminate smaller competitors.

I don’t think that operating at a loss was ever the strategy. It just seemed that way based on the number of locations they were opening. The eye was on growing revenue year-over-year. More locations equated to more revenue but also more fixed costs and therefore less overall profitability. They are correcting that mistake now, it seems.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

FWIW the Starbucks near me has had a 2 m spaced lineup out the door most times I've gone during the pandemic.

Any time I order ahead there's always five-to-seven people either waiting in line or have already ordered waiting for their order. I don't think Starbucks' popularity has declined whatsoever despite what some may hope.

Originally Posted by someone123

On a related note I've been amused by the Tim Hortons locations that reopened the distanced dining areas to have 1 senior sit at each of the 2 tables for hours on end.

Pretty typical for every Tim's location, pre-COVID or not. It's actually pretty impressive how each location, no matter where in Canada, has their select group of seniors that loiter each day.

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I don’t think that operating at a loss was ever the strategy. It just seemed that way based on the number of locations they were opening. The eye was on growing revenue year-over-year. More locations equated to more revenue but also more fixed costs and therefore less overall profitability. They are correcting that mistake now, it seems.

Overwhelm competitors with sheer force, wait for competitors to die off, then lessen locations once market share is an acceptable amount.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Pretty typical for every Tim's location, pre-COVID or not. It's actually pretty impressive how each location, no matter where in Canada, has their select group of seniors that loiter each day.

That is true but what used to be 12 seniors taking up 60% of the seating turned into 2-3 seniors taking up 100% of the seating. Also this is the highest-risk group for covid and they seem to care the least about it.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Anyone had coffee at a Starbucks Reserve?

Yes, many times in various cities around Asia and once at the original Reserve location in Seattle. It's a big cut above their regular stuff and it's good in a pinch. But what bugs me is that every single one of their single origin or "specialty" coffees still has that weird Starbucks taste, which suggests to me they're doing something in the roasting process that prioritizes their brand signature over letting the coffee speak for itself.

[Kilgore Trout]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

Indeed... Montreal's coffee culture goes back several decades while Ottawa's has been developing only since the early 80s. Having said that, locally-owned coffee shops are growing like crazy in Ottawa (Bridgehead, Crazy Cow, etc) just like the rest of the foodie scene and I think that Starbucks is on shaky ground in that city as well.

As others have said I think Starbucks is becoming a primarily suburban thing. Ottawa is definitely a step below Montreal in terms of coffee, but there are still lots of independent cafés. A few are very good by any standard and I make a point to visit them every time I'm in town. Little Victories in the Glebe is particularly nice.

Here in Montreal it's no surprise as to why Starbucks isn't popular. By my count, there are at least 30 independent cafés in my neighbourhood alone – that's an area of just one square kilometre.

[wave46]

I knew the game of endless growth for Starbucks was pretty much over when Timmins got one.

There's only so much the coffee-shop market can really absorb. Like Tim Hortons squeezing out the mom-and-pop donut shops and the second rate competition (see: Country Style/Robins), I can't imagine there's much headspace for Starbucks left in many places.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Harrison

Yes, it is much better than their conventional brews, but not much different from quality beans at a local roaster. The price is definitely higher than what a local cafe in Edmonton would charge.

Ah ok. I walked by the Granville Street Vancouver location but never had time to check it out.

[Denscity]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Yes, many times in various cities around Asia and once at the original Reserve location in Seattle. It's a big cut above their regular stuff and it's good in a pinch. But what bugs me is that every single one of their single origin or "specialty" coffees still has that weird Starbucks taste, which suggests to me they're doing something in the roasting process that prioritizes their brand signature over letting the coffee speak for itself.

Interesting I should check it out next time I'm on the coast.

[whatnext]

Since we're talking retail, this pissed me off: I went into Banana Republic the other day and they said : Oh our fittign rooms aren't open right, now but you have 45 days to return it".

If I can't try it on, what's the point of going into a store? I could just order it online have it delivered right to me and if it doesn't fit, return it. I have not heard of any documented Covid transmission from trying clothes on. The whole thing was ridiculous.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Since we're talking retail, this pissed me off: I went into Banana Republic the other day and they said : Oh our fittign rooms aren't open right, now but you have 45 days to return it".

If I can't try it on, what's the point of going into a store? I could just order it online have it delivered right to me and if it doesn't fit, return it. I have not heard of any documented Covid transmission from trying clothes on. The whole thing was ridiculous.

it makes no sense, some stores let you try on, some don't. If you have it taking it home and bringing it back ain't gonna change anything. Perhaps it cuts down on work that they have to do, like having to sanitize everything everytime.