Highways in Canada

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by vid

We had more people and a stronger economy when Europe's wheat was behind an iron curtain

Northwest Ontario exports wheat?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Northwest Ontario exports wheat?

You're not aware of the grain terminals in Thunder Bay?????

[wave46]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Northwest Ontario exports wheat?

The wheat from the Prairies is exported via Thunder Bay port.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by vid

Divide that funding by highway miles, though. I think Thunder Bay District alone has more highway miles in it than all of Southern Ontario. A lot of that funding is going toward maintenance and infrastructure upgrades on secondary highways in this region, something that in Southern Ontario is funded by upper and single tier municipalities.

It's a consequence of the region being so sparsely populated. I'm sure Manitoba spends more on highways per-capita than Southern Ontario as well.

The other downside is that since Southern Ontario contractors started winning the bids for highway construction up here, we've seen delays. Most of the single-season projects have been dragging into the following spring and it's strange that this is happening because our construction season is now about 6 weeks longer thanks to climate change.

Southern Ontario's highway miles are much more complex, however. Rebuilding a single direction of the 401 for 2km through Toronto costs upwards of $100 million. $100 million in northern Ontario would see repaving of hundreds of kilometres of highways.

As MisterF said, the two environments are vastly different and are really not comparable. Northern Ontario needs additional subsidy compared to the south because of the way it is organized, and that will never change. The issue a lot of people from Southern Ontario have is when people in the north claim that they are subsidizing us, not the other way around. Northern Ontario receives a much larger subsidy per capita. It's not a bad thing necessarily (I certainly don't have an issue with it), but just fact.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There is a feeling of alienation in Northern Ontario from Queens Park. There is even talk of separating Ontario into 2 provinces. Want those things to stop, give us safe highways. a barrier to divide the lanes from each other is safer, especially in bad weather.

This faux ransom demand stuff is SO annoying.

I live about an hour northeast from Toronto.

The closest expressway to my house is a toll road that I can't afford to drive to and from work.

I pay for parking at my job.

If I drive in any direction that isn't Toronto, I'm not following a four lane road either.

One of the closest provincial highways to my house is Hwy 12. At least one person dies on it every year.
http://www.durhamregion.com/news-story/7...ses-hwy-7-12-and-reach-street-in-scugog/
http://www.durhamregion.com/news-story/6...r-serious-collision-south-of-port-perry/
http://www.durhamregion.com/news-story/4...two-dead-in-head-on-collision-in-scugog/

I'm not crying to Queens Park that Durham Region should separate because the transportation network isn't perfect.

Get some perspective.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by wave46

The wheat from the Prairies is exported via Thunder Bay port.

That makes more sense.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by wave46

The wheat from the Prairies is exported via Thunder Bay port.

Fairly certain most of it still goes through Vancouver, though I don't doubt T-Bay sees a decent chunk.

[vid]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

The issue a lot of people from Southern Ontario have is when people in the north claim that they are subsidizing us, not the other way around. Northern Ontario receives a much larger subsidy per capita. It's not a bad thing necessarily (I certainly don't have an issue with it), but just fact.

Northern Ontario is taking resource royalties into consideration when we make that claim. It's the natural wealth of Northern Ontario that drove Ontario's economy from the 1880s to the 1970s. That's why Ontario went all the way to London to take possession of this part of the country in the first place. The TSX isn't loaded with mining companies because of a few oil wells in Sarnia.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

One of the closest provincial highways to my house is Hwy 12. At least one person dies on it every year.

Here, it's more like 5 or 6 per year. On a highway that averages half as much as highway 12.

December

January

In spite of this, Ontario still has some of the safest roads in the world.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I'm not crying to Queens Park that Durham Region should separate because the transportation network isn't perfect.

Get some perspective.

Neither are we. Northern Ontario's separatism is based more on resource management and economic rights than the highway system. Ontario's government has millions of environmentalists in the south screaming bloody murder every time a tree is logged or a moose is killed, that drives the government to implement policies here that go against what the local people want implemented (and some of them, like the mismanagement of forests and wildlife, have actually had negative consequences of the local environment).

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Northwest Ontario exports wheat?

Thunder Bay has the largest grain handling capacity in a single port on the planet. (Buffalo claims this but I don't understand why, they have less grain elevators and few of them operate). Only Vancouver, Halifax and Hamilton have bigger ports in Canada than Thunder Bay, by area. We might also have the largest harbour contained by a man-made breakwater on the planet as well. Our breakwater is the second or third longest in the world. Half of the operating grain elevators in Canada are in Thunder Bay, and this is after two-thirds of the local elevators closed.


Thunder Bay's port and port-adjacent industrial facilities. Much of it is now vacant land. In the 1940s, probably 50% of the developed land in this city was industry along the lake and river.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by vid

Northern Ontario is taking resource royalties into consideration when we make that claim. It's the natural wealth of Northern Ontario that drove Ontario's economy from the 1880s to the 1970s. That's why Ontario went all the way to London to take possession of this part of the country in the first place. The TSX isn't loaded with mining companies because of a few oil wells in Sarnia.

I wish your new province luck in being able to borrow money for deficit spending without the economic diversity of southern Ontario.

Originally Posted by vid

December

January

In spite of this, Ontario still has some of the safest roads in the world.

You have included collisions on both Hwy 11/17 and Hwy 61. I only included fatality statistics for Hwy 12, and only included three articles that came up on a google search. I could find more articles if you still think northern highways are somehow unique.

Originally Posted by vid

Neither are we. Northern Ontario's separatism is based more on resource management and economic rights than the highway system. Ontario's government has millions of environmentalists in the south screaming bloody murder every time a tree is logged or a moose is killed, that drives the government to implement policies here that go against what the local people want implemented (and some of them, like the mismanagement of forests and wildlife, have actually had negative consequences of the local environment).

The collapse of the forestry industry seems to have more to do with the collapse of the newspaper industry than it does with environmentalists living in southern Ontario. The collapse of new housing starts in the US following the great recession in 2008 also had a long-term impact.

[vid]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

I wish your new province luck in being able to borrow money for deficit spending without the economic diversity of southern Ontario.

It's weird how people fight so hard to keep a region that they themselves claim costs them money for no benefit. If we're such a drain on Ontario why are we still in it?

Originally Posted by sonysnob

You have included collisions on both Hwy 11/17 and Hwy 61. I only included fatality statistics for Hwy 12, and only included three articles that came up on a google search. I could find more articles if you still think northern highways are somehow unique.

It's the same highway, the numbering is messed up for historical reasons. Those numbers used to follow different roads and they've moved around a bit as new highways were built. The MTO refers to the road internally has Highway 7250.

Originally Posted by sonysnob

The collapse of the forestry industry seems to have more to do with the collapse of the newspaper industry than it does with environmentalists living in southern Ontario. The collapse of new housing starts in the US following the great recession in 2008 also had a long-term impact.

Free trade was what killed our sawmills. We have the same number of sawmills now that we did in 2008.

There are still opportunities for forestry jobs. The industry is doing well in Finland and Michigan. It has the occasional uptick here, but the provincial regulations on how trees can be harvested has resulted, in multiple instances, of companies going under because they can't gain the rights to harvest any trees because either a different forestry company which no longer operates in the area holds those rights, or because the bureaucracy of assigning those rights moves to slowly for investors and they pull out. The lack of progress on the provincial side of policies surrounding the Ring of Fire chromium project is what led to its main player pulling out two years ago. It's currently stalled because no one will commit to a transportation corridor to access it.

[sonysnob]

Originally Posted by vid

It's weird how people fight so hard to keep a region that they themselves claim costs them money for no benefit. If we're such a drain on Ontario why are we still in it?

Did I sound like I was fighting to keep northern Ontario?

Originally Posted by vid

It's the same highway, the numbering is messed up for historical reasons. Those numbers used to follow different roads and they've moved around a bit as new highways were built. The MTO refers to the road internally has Highway 7250.

How is the numbering messed-up for historical reasons? Since 1937, Highway 61 has extended southerly from Thunder Bay (or then Fort William), and Highway 17 has extended west and north.

Originally Posted by vid

Free trade was what killed our sawmills. We have the same number of sawmills now that we did in 2008.

There are still opportunities for forestry jobs. The industry is doing well in Finland and Michigan. It has the occasional uptick here, but the provincial regulations on how trees can be harvested has resulted, in multiple instances, of companies going under because they can't gain the rights to harvest any trees because either a different forestry company which no longer operates in the area holds those rights, or because the bureaucracy of assigning those rights moves to slowly for investors and they pull out. The lack of progress on the provincial side of policies surrounding the Ring of Fire chromium project is what led to its main player pulling out two years ago. It's currently stalled because no one will commit to a transportation corridor to access it.

Ontario's forestry industry has more than double the workforce than that of Michigan:

See Section 3.0
https://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/FPIECME2013-Leefers_513869_7.pdf

Ontario:
https://cfs.nrcan.gc.ca/statsprofile/overview/on

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by vid

Thunder Bay has the largest grain handling capacity in a single port on the planet. (Buffalo claims this but I don't understand why, they have less grain elevators and few of them operate). Only Vancouver, Halifax and Hamilton have bigger ports in Canada than Thunder Bay, by area. We might also have the largest harbour contained by a man-made breakwater on the planet as well. Our breakwater is the second or third longest in the world. Half of the operating grain elevators in Canada are in Thunder Bay, and this is after two-thirds of the local elevators closed.

Is the port running significantly under capacity then?

I looked up the stats and in 2015 (last available full year for T-Bay) grains exported through Thunder bay was 8 million tonnes Vs. 25.3 million tonnes in Vancouver. Of those grains wheat was 6 million in Thunder bay vs 10.8 million in Vancouver.

A quick google map 3D view of Thunder Bay's port shows A LOT of elevators, are most empty?

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by vid

Northern Ontario is taking resource royalties into consideration when we make that claim. It's the natural wealth of Northern Ontario that drove Ontario's economy from the 1880s to the 1970s. That's why Ontario went all the way to London to take possession of this part of the country in the first place. The TSX isn't loaded with mining companies because of a few oil wells in Sarnia.



Here, it's more like 5 or 6 per year. On a highway that averages half as much as highway 12.

December

January

In spite of this, Ontario still has some of the safest roads in the world.



Neither are we. Northern Ontario's separatism is based more on resource management and economic rights than the highway system. Ontario's government has millions of environmentalists in the south screaming bloody murder every time a tree is logged or a moose is killed, that drives the government to implement policies here that go against what the local people want implemented (and some of them, like the mismanagement of forests and wildlife, have actually had negative consequences of the local environment).



Thunder Bay has the largest grain handling capacity in a single port on the planet. (Buffalo claims this but I don't understand why, they have less grain elevators and few of them operate). Only Vancouver, Halifax and Hamilton have bigger ports in Canada than Thunder Bay, by area. We might also have the largest harbour contained by a man-made breakwater on the planet as well. Our breakwater is the second or third longest in the world. Half of the operating grain elevators in Canada are in Thunder Bay, and this is after two-thirds of the local elevators closed.


Thunder Bay's port and port-adjacent industrial facilities. Much of it is now vacant land. In the 1940s, probably 50% of the developed land in this city was industry along the lake and river.

Thanks for all of the great info about the Port of Thunder Bay. I was wholly unaware of its significance.

I looked up the (old 2011) numbers on Stats Canada to learn more about the tonnage shipped by Canadian ports and, in particular, by Port Metro Vancouver. There are many statistics! Many!

Canadian international container tonnage was 40.6Mt in 2011 and volume was 4.6M TEUs. Port Metro Vancouver moves 21.52Mt; 53% of Canada's total international containerized cargo tonnage.

Marine cargo traffic with the USA was 96.6Mt in 2011 (down from 103Mt in 2010). 89.4% of this tonnage moved on the Great Lakes were by Canadian flagged vessels.

Marine cargo traffic with everyone other than the USA was 245Mt in 2011, up from 231.2Mt in 2010. Exports represented 163.7Mt, an increase of 12.2Mt over 2010 and virtually all of that increase went to Asian destinations, which account for 59.4% of Canadian export tonnage. Imports represented 81.3Mt in 2011, up from 79.8Mt in 2010.

Canadian ports moved 124.6Mt of domestic cargo, up from 116.4Mt in 2010.

Canada's 17 port authorities moved 285.2Mt of cargo in 2011, which accounts for 61.2% of all marine cargo handled in Canada.

Port Metro Vancouver handled 107.6Mt in 2011.
Port of Saint John handled 31.5Mt in 2011.
Port of Quebec handled 29Mt in 2011.
Port of Montreal handled 27.9Mt in 2011.
Port of Sept-Iles handled 25.8Mt in 2011.
Port of Prince Rupert handled 18.8Mt in 2011.
Port of Hamilton handled 10Mt in 2011.
Port of Halifax handled 9.9Mt in 2011.
Port of Thunder Bay handled 7.6Mt in 2011.
Port of Windsor handled 4.9Mt in 2011.
Port of Trois-Rivieres handled 3.2Mt in 2011.
Port of Nanaimo handled 2.2Mt in 2011.
Port of Belledune handled 2.0Mt in 2011.
Port of Toronto handled 1.8Mt in 2011.
Port Alberni handled 1.4Mt in 2011.
Port St. John's handled 1.4Mt in 2011.
Port of Saguenay handled 0.3Mt in 2011.

[1overcosc]

Out of curiosity, if the fall of the Iron Curtain hurt Thunder Bay because of grain exports, were the Prairies hurt as well?

[wave46]

Originally Posted by vid

It's weird how people fight so hard to keep a region that they themselves claim costs them money for no benefit. If we're such a drain on Ontario why are we still in it?

Northern Ontario is still part of Ontario because - aside from a few posters here - there's no political will of the residents to change the status quo. Sure, there's complaining about the south (read: Toronto) but no actual political desire for change. The Northern Ontario Party is a fringe element at best.

As for kicking us out, most people in Southern Ontario are relatively indifferent to the north and I'm sure not many would weep if the province separated.

As for the economic benefits of Northern Ontario to the South, sure, it's great to look back at history and claim that everything would be sunshine and rainbows if we were our own province in the past, but that time is gone now. Almost every commodity-based region looks back on a golden age and thinks that 'if only we had been our own jurisdiction' that today would be perfect. And then commodity prices tank and it's better to be part of a more diversified jurisdiction - makes the highs less high, but mitigates the lows.

To be quite honest, I think the province has paid us back (if you will) for the resource royalties - every city in Northern Ontario has received a new hospital since 1992, the province has created 2 new universities (Algoma and Nipissing) along with the development of the Northern Ontario Medical School and committed to 4 lane major highways to the north (11 to North Bay, 69 to Sudbury, 11/17 near Thunder Bay). What else do people want?

If I had a blank slate to draw the provincial borders of Canada, I would probably not put Northern and Southern Ontario together. Alas, history has been written and borders defined. IMO, being a part of the province of Ontario is not a bad thing. Not perfect, but nothing is.

I digress. Back to highways.

[FrAnKs]

New video !
Featuring The Montréal's Northern Beltway, Autoroute 640.
Enjoy !

• Video Link

[sonysnob]

^ Franks, great vid as always

Below is a vid of a the Thunder Bay Expressway taken a couple of summers ago:

• Video Link

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by sonysnob

^ Franks, great vid as always

Below is a vid of a the Thunder Bay Expressway taken a couple of summers ago:

North west Ontario only has one interchange? That surprises me but not as much as Manitoba apparently having no diamond interchanges.

[Innsertnamehere]

yup. less than 5 years old too.

[vid]

If you drive the right speed, you can drive the entire highway without hitting a red light once. I've done it several times. It's easier to do it travelling southbound than northbound for whatever reason and usually the one that trips you up is Arthur Street since it has a long red light. I once did the loop around the city (Simpson>Fort William>Water>Cumberland>Hodder>Expressway>Arthur>Simpson) and didn't hit a single red light until I got to the last intersection, that was pretty cool.

Somewhat highway related:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/thunder-bay-truck-weights-1.4036824

Thunder Bay may soon restrict heavy trucks on city streets
New bylaw would mandate vehicles on city streets be under 15,000 kg, with some exceptions

The proposed bylaw, set to be voted on Mar. 27, would mandate that vehicles driving on Thunder Bay roadways weigh no more than 15,000 kilograms. That would mainly affect some dump trucks, tractor trailers and pulp and logging trucks, said Ryan Love, the city's traffic technologist.

...

If adopted, the new rules would largely funnel heavy vehicles driving through Thunder Bay along Highway 11-17 and Highway 61. The corridor that includes Hodder Avenue south to Main Street via Water Street would also be open to overweight vehicles, as would routes between the East End and Mission Island, among a couple of others.

The city has struggled with a way to get heavy trucks off of West Arthur and Dawson Road since 2007 when the new Highway 11/17 extension replaced them. Dawson Road between Highway 527 and 11/17 is a city street and only marked as highway 102 for navigation purposes, while Arthur Street between Highway 61 and Highway 130 is also a city street and no longer marked as a highway at all.