Phoenix Development News (3)

[dtnphx]

Really excellent and heart-felt post. Thank you.

[Freeway]

Originally Posted by turpentyne

Some thoughts occur to me, after watching posters go back and forth on how to handle downtown growth/construction.

It's obvious that there are two opposing views.
1 - Build it (correctly) and they will come.
2 - Demand must meet/exceed supply, before we build.

I see people say that one or the other "doesn't get it," but that's not constructive, and not the point. Just because somebody has a differing view, it doesn't mean they don't acknowledge or understand the other side. They just have... a different view.

I think the problem is, that this city is at an impasse without some wealthy visionary or a community willing to think beyond supply/demand economics. There are many things about our future that will get much worse, if we don't make a concerted effort to improve our density in the core. This isn't just because we're skyscraper afficionados on a website daydreaming about 500' buildings.

For me, to build up and build wisely makes the growing city more viable, Density builds better community. A better community brings more businesses and people - growing the economy.

But it's beyond just the 'happy community'. We need to contract our cities to protect our future. Building up, instead of out will help us control pollution. It will soften the heat island effect, halt the destruction of a delicate desert environment and make dwindling water supplies easier to distribute.

Phoenix can lighten its load in providing services like transit/police/medical and so on. Just look at the story of why Detroit has to shrink. They are tearing down outlying neighborhoods because they simply can't afford to provide the services.

No, we're not in Detroit-esque decline. But look into the crystal ball of our future with an unbiased eye, and try to convince yourself you can't see a painful future. It isn't some Democratic or Republican political armageddon. It's a far more real threat to humanity. Global warming, dwindling water supply, slowing population growth that could send economies into free-fall as they likely begin to decline in the coming 50 years. These are just the threats that come to mind.

A compact city can better weather this future. It lets the farms be closer to us. Cops have less land to patrol. You might actually get to know your neighbor. We can restore some of our environment, or at the very least, stop gobbling it up wholesale, just to have a lawn and a moment's peace.

We can discuss the details of how to achieve the density, and there will be different solutions. But I feel it's admitting defeat when we simply say "we have to wait until there are no empty storefronts, before building more. That's like saying Tesla Motors shouldn't bother building electric cars because the market for them is too small. Or apple shouldn't build a smart phone, because other companies already have them. Or saying we shouldn't get involved in World War II, because it looks like a losing proposition. Our history is littered with people who never took chances - and bejeweled with those who dared.

Some things are bigger than markets and saying a city is too far down some nihilistic path of growth. We need that visionary to help us get there. And if not one, then all of us need to combine our thoughts constructively to build that collective vision of the future. Educate those who don't know any better. Elect officials who have NO predatory, self-interested motives. Think bigger than the obstacles. A few empty storefronts is no reason to walk away from great ideas.

ok.. I'm done ranting! hahah! I just couldn't help myself!

While this is an open forum for throwing out ideas and having a discussion of different viewpoints, I have trouble accepting viewpoints that deviate from reality. Reality is black and white. There really is no grey area.

We do not have that visionary nor do we have a community willing to look outside of the supply/demand model because there is just too much risk. We are arguably still in a horrible recession where developers and real estate investors have really taken a walloping. The market here is still extremely volatile; one week the Phoenix Business Journal hints that we're rocketing out of the real estate slump and the next week we hear about stagnant housing values or rapidly declining home purchases from the prior month. If developers are hesitant to move forward with typical development here, I don't see where the desire for anything innovative comes into play.

Outside of a few areas in the city, additional density is not desired by most. Residents have tons of pull in the city and whatever they demand is what the city will eventually concede to no matter what the long term effects may be. It's the unfortunate reality of this being the most suburban, auto-dependent major city in this country. There's no retrofitting that. If it's what people want, it's what we will have. We can scream until we're blue in the face about the benefits of density, but it will not resonate with anyone who has the power to incite any change. I know this seems like such a negative position, but I have accepted this as being where we are as a city.

I feel like we have been in Detroit-style decline in areas of this city for decades and people have refused to acknowledge this. Midtown with its office vacancies and abandoned restaurants/gas stations/vacant lots/recurring graffiti feels very Detroit-esque to me. Just in the past several months a Circle K, McDonald's, and Schlotzsky's all shut down on Central Avenue. You know a neighborhood is in trouble when it can't even maintain a Circle K and McDonald's. Downtown, with it's vacant high rises, vacant storefronts and empty streets on the weekends reminds me of a Rust Belt city. From what I hear, many of these areas used to be the premiere areas of the city. Now they're just in horrible disrepair.

Convincing people that density and a compact city will change all this will not work. People will argue that density will increase crime, exacerbate the heat island effect, increase traffic, increase noise, reduce property values, reduce privacy, ruin mountain views, force people into an unwanted urban lifestyle, and the like.

We need to work within our context and work with the projects that are being proposed, instead of lamenting about how we're not developing a downtown like Denver, San Diego, Minneapolis, or Seattle. We had a different hand of cards dealt to us than those cities and we need to learn how to play with what we have.

[turpentyne]

The world is not black and white. Only our perception of it.

The point of my post has been widely missed. We must change the context.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by Freeway

We need to work within our context and work with the projects that are being proposed, instead of lamenting about how we're not developing a downtown like Denver, San Diego, Minneapolis, or Seattle. We had a different hand of cards dealt to us than those cities and we need to learn how to play with what we have.

Phoenix was one of this nation's most successful cities from 1950 to 2000. Oil was cheap, land was plentiful, and people loved the climate and topography. Today, it's struggling to find that old magic in a world where globalization no longer rewards sprawl and sunshine but creativity and connection. We self-selected for a population that wanted to be left alone in its backyards, great rooms, and cars, and there's little energy among them to adapt or change. turpentyne, in this respect, is exactly right to want a revisioning of this city. We have to do something to change the game or the city will decline. And you are exactly right in saying Phoenix has to play the hand it's been dealt. It's unusual to read a disagreement in which both parties are see things so clearly if somewhat differently. I don't think you can think your way out of this problem, but to be able to define it accurately at least gives you a basis in reality. That basis is the one in which solutions, if they exist, will emerge from.

[PHX31]

Bitter & Twisted opens tomorrow. From the pictures they've posted on Facebook, it looks like it will be a great addition downtown. Perfect for the Luhr's block and really cool inside.

[DMancini]

Originally Posted by PHX31

Bitter & Twisted opens tomorrow. From the pictures they've posted on Facebook, it looks like it will be a great addition downtown. Perfect for the Luhr's block and really cool inside.

I've been in the space, I've had the cocktails, and sampled the food. This and The Local are the exact types of spaces needed in Downtown. These are places that, while not open 7 days a week, are open late the days that they are open (and have both committed to late hours regardless of the amount of business they receive during those hours), serve food til closing time, and give a good, quality, more upscale experience. If you are a bit of a cocktail snob, Downtown is quickly becoming the place to be with good bar programs at Lustre, Blue Hound, The Local, Bitter and Twisted, and Rumbar. Ross is a downtown resident and "gets" downtown. He knows what he is missing as a 30 something living downtown and that was a major part of his opening down here as well as the hours he is opening.

Now if we can just convince him and the rest of the downtown bars and restaurants that Sundays and Mondays are not going to be wasted days for them to be open.

[gymratmanaz]

I went in today and it really is a great addition. It totally fits being across from Arrogant Butcher. Great vibe!!!!!!!!

Come check out MY FAIR LADY at the Phoenix Symphony this weekend. I am in it and will be hitting Bitter and Twisted after the shows. Looks like a great hangout for later night!!!!!

[Jjs5056]

Another long night and another long post - if something doesn't make sense, I am happy to clarify. Or, you can just chuck the whole thing out.

Freeway, I don't have enough energy to respond completely to your multiple posts since I was last logged in, especially when I'm not sure whether you are just baiting, or if you truly believe the things you write.

1) The strength of the downtown and midtown retail/restaurant scene has never been healthier; a closed Scholtzsky's is nothing when you look at the unique, one-of-a-kind and thoughtful destinations that our local talent is putting together, one after another. The fact that The Mod's success has been so overwhelming that they're confident moving toward a pay per hour model on the corner of one of the most hideous skyscrapers in town is one of many of the finer points. Others have mentioned the rest, but besides a few high profile pockets of empty retail - which shows a problem with that building/agency instead of the market - there's a true momentum growing, and with ReinventPHX, maybe there is a shot at fostering true stakeholders and ambassadors for this next generation.

I also listed the several residential developments proposed in Midtown within the last 6 months or so, which is a rate not seen since the boom. I don't know if you chose to ignore it or what, but there IS a market for urban residential, and there has been all along, as shown as far back as 2011 when apartment vacancy rates were nearly full. Unfortunately, the only products to come online since then have been for students, seniors, or low-income residents, shutting out the class of people who want to enjoy this growing energy, but are hindered in one way or the other.

Need for Densification
When I list other cities, I don't do so because I expect Phoenix developers to thrown down 20+ story condos in Garfield. I reference them because I hadn't realized how little other cities stalled post-recession having focused solely on Phoenix development. Other major cities are finding the market and exploiting it and continuing to push high quality, high density projects within their cores while Phoenix has resorted to 3-story lofts on McKinley and infill work - work that is MUCH needed, but needs to eventually connect urban destinations to have a point. And, it's centralizing, densifying and energizing those urban destinations that has yet to happen.

The Local on Roosevelt, Bitter and Twister on Jefferson, The Mod on Thomas. Low density infill on Roosevelt/1st, low density infill on McKinley/3rd, low density infill on Lewis/Central... yes, there is light rail. Yes, there seems to be a large enough market for the moment to support all of these ventures. But, my major point is - and, yes, Soleri, I know it gets lost in my sea of letters - that we continue to make the same mistake consistently and expect different results. And, with these inspiring local efforts being made, it's even more maddening to see the City and those in power waste precious opportunities to create an urban fabric within a city that has had to come back from literally nothing.

To allow two campuses to consume 2/3 of downtown land and not hold them to the set of urban standards we took years to create is an insult to all on Roosevelt Row, who certainly would have benefitted from a more integrated ASU campus that served as a conduit between the energy of CityScape/Luhrs and Roosevelt/south Midtown. We've watched block after block (not lot... entire BLOCKS) destroyed by mega projects that utilize an inward-facing design approach, yet ASU will be breaking ground on yet another one by end of year. Garages have severed the string of continuous commerce, and yet we're filling WVB - zoned for large scale retail and our last corridor with height allowance - with one on almost every corner.

Mix of Residential, Commercial, Retail, etc.
Leo - I think the issue with Phoenix has been that each mayor, each council, each generation has had different theories on how to execute the exact same solutions to the exact same problems. We've simply continued to chase the beast of decay without a holistic outlook on where we want to end up, and that's resulted in a patchwork that mixes residential within commercial corridors, malls in urban centers, parks on prime real estate... there is no dedicated financial district; entertainment district; arts district; residential neighborhoods. And, many would be envious of this strategy if it were indeed strategic and not accidental. Look at Midtown. What was once envisioned to be a Wilshire Blvd commercial corridor was rebranded as a Museum/Arts District, and now that office vacancies are reaching a point of desperation, we're now seeing an influx of residential proposals. But, what we need are tall, dense, mixed use proposals to make up for the fact that Midtown was a commercial center for decades. 4-5 stories of a generic template won't have any net impact on downtown, and will only hinder efforts made further south.

Future of the Urban Villages
Portland on the Park is the only development I've seen with the potential to have impact to the point where more development follows, grocers come into play, clothing stores pop up, etc. Filling those towers with that demographic is a perfect kickstart. But, we're on the same page that it's Roosevelt, Garfield, and the Southern districts that need unique, tailored strategies for how they will feed into the downtown ecosystem. Senior housing and luxury condos isn't a great mix, either. Middle class, creative classes, families... they need to feel safe living and experiencing downtown for it to prosper, as well.

ASU - Example of Urban Campus Done Right
When I see this, I'm able to sleep knowing I'm not completely insane. This is the kind of development that should have been occurring on each of the ASU properties downtown. This is how you turn students into residents, professors into downtown employees, academic infrastructure into publically accessible, urban destinations. Is this perfect, either? No. It has a food court - enough said. But, this is how the public-private integration was supposed to benefit the city and ASU mutually.

http://www.usquaremadison.com/about/

[soleri]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

But, we're on the same page that it's Roosevelt, Garfield, and the Southern districts that need unique, tailored strategies for how they will feed into the downtown ecosystem. Senior housing and luxury condos isn't a great mix, either. Middle class, creative classes, families... they need to feel safe living and experiencing downtown for it to prosper, as well.
http://www.usquaremadison.com/about/

I think the downtown ecosystem might be charitably described as a few demonstration projects looking for a market. There are really no examples that I can think of where urban planners somehow created an ecosystem by fiat. This is the fundamental misunderstanding that many academics have. Once the city has been destroyed in the name of saving it, there's not enough subtlety, complexity, or diversity left in the ashes to grow an improved version of what was killed. Cities are specific people in relationship to one another. It's why you need a real economy, old buildings, charm, mutual interests, and history itself. It can't be faked like New Urbanists tend to to think. If a new downtown isn't anchored to a functional and organic entity, it will never be real. At best, you can plow a lot of money into an area and create something like downtown Scottsdale. That's as good as you're going to get.

[dtnphx]

Originally Posted by soleri

I think the downtown ecosystem might be charitably described as a few demonstration projects looking for a market. There are really no examples that I can think of where urban planners somehow created an ecosystem by fiat. This is the fundamental misunderstanding that many academics have. Once the city has been destroyed in the name of saving it, there's not enough subtlety, complexity, or diversity left in the ashes to grow an improved version of what was killed. Cities are specific people in relationship to one another. It's why you need a real economy, old buildings, charm, mutual interests, and history itself. It can't be faked like New Urbanists tend to to think. If a new downtown isn't anchored to a functional and organic entity, it will never be real. At best, you can plow a lot of money into an area and create something like downtown Scottsdale. That's as good as you're going to get.

I totally get where you are coming from. Phoenix is a difficult model to get one's hands around. However, when you look at many cities that have been destroyed by war or massive growth, i.e. Berlin, Shanghai, etc., you have new cities built on top of what was. Cities such as NY and Chicago for example, do not resemble the city it once was a hundred years ago, but that doesn't mean that new urban life doesn't spring forth and prosper. Buildings built in the 1950s in NYC, let's say, were built on land that had may have had several buildings on it over the past 200 years. If we lament only the what is not there now compared to what is there now, then we do ourselves a disservice -- we then cannot feel that this "new" space is legitimate. Like you said, cities are specific people in relationships with one another. That dynamic still exists, perhaps not in as an organic setting as it may have been, but none the less, as valuable as any other time in history. New relationships and conditions can and often create a dynamic better than what was there in the past. Even though much of our downtown projects are demonstration projects (brilliant point), they eventually bring others to soften, to add to, to build on, to create more, etc. I, too, am frustrated sometimes by what we have done, and must preserve as much as possible, but still remain hopeful in creating a great new civic synergy.

[soleri]

Originally Posted by dtnphx

I totally get where you are coming from. Phoenix is a difficult model to get one's hands around. However, when you look at many cities that have been destroyed by war or massive growth, i.e. Berlin, Shanghai, etc., you have new cities built on top of what was. Cities such as NY and Chicago for example, do not resemble the city it once was a hundred years ago, but that doesn't mean that new urban life doesn't spring forth and prosper. Buildings built in the 1950s in NYC, let's say, were built on land that had may have had several buildings on it over the past 200 years. If we lament only the what is not there now compared to what is there now, then we do ourselves a disservice -- we then cannot feel that this "new" space is legitimate. Like you said, cities are specific people in relationships with one another. That dynamic still exists, perhaps not in as an organic setting as it may have been, but none the less, as valuable as any other time in history. New relationships and conditions can and often create a dynamic better than what was there in the past. Even though much of our downtown projects are demonstration projects (brilliant point), they eventually bring others to soften, to add to, to build on, to create more, etc. I, too, am frustrated sometimes by what we have done, and must preserve as much as possible, but still remain hopeful in creating a great new civic synergy.

I completely concur with your examples. I would merely point out that cities will evolve over time into increasingly complex entities as Chicago and New York demonstrate. In effect. they're built on the foundations of their older selves, so they weren't wholesale reinventions. In the case of German cities destroyed in the war, the survivors picked up the pieces, often quite literally, and reconstructed entire buildings and neighborhoods while reestablishing long-rooted economies. Their historical memory was quite fresh even if the historical reconstructions were less than pristine.

What happened in Phoenix is that downtown was simply too small to transform itself during Phoenix's long epic boom. Two things happened in sequence: the first was the decentralization of the city through the car and new economic nodes such as shopping centers. The second involved an effort to create a downtown for this much larger city after the fact. Therefore, many old buildings were torn down, larger ones were built in their place. But at almost at every juncture after 1980, the city itself was the primary stakeholder and mover. Virtually everything you see downtown came into being as a result of city planners, politicians, and a few movers and shakers creating new set pieces in an imaginarium to be called Downtown Phoenix. Sports venues! Rouse Company tourist destinations! College campuses! Convention centers and hotels! All that vaunted "synergy", however, never crystallized. Downtown stayed moribund.

Downtown LA encapsulates this Phoenix problem along with a solution that is now surprising many observers. The post-1970 downtown LA - all those glistening high-rises near Bunker Hill - are still monuments without context and utterly inert at street level. The old downtown LA along Broadway, Spring, and Main streets became a virtual slum. Through some miracle, those buildings were not torn down and now are being reclaimed as young Millennials flock to downtown and make it their urban neighborhood. This wasn't a matter of imposing their will on the city. They didn't have to. They simply brought their own creativity and applied it one building at a time. Young people were so hungry for an urban vibe that put up with the nation's largest homeless population along with degraded civic amenities like Pershing Square. By the way, California has another urban success story unfolding in Oakland.

Phoenix, alas, cannot leverage this option since it never had a comparable building stock. It does have some assets, e.g., the old Professional Building, and the quasi-homeless shelter called the Westward Ho. All I can suggest is that a real Phoenix renaissance is not going to involve more glitzy high rises or tabula rasa biomedical complexes. It's real people doing real things in a real place over time. Somehow, Phoenix will have to risk trusting itself and its history to find its real core. Young people, artists, and small entrepreneurs will write this story. If you can get City Hall to go along, there might be a miracle with Phoenix's name on it.

[Jackdavis4]

Anyone hear anything on Luhrs? Put that and the ballpark apartments down there and south phoenix is looking good!

[Phxguy]

http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.co...ouse-district/

An interesting concept developing in the Warehouse district. Hopefully with the innovative design and more jobs being plopped into the area, we can start seeing apartment/loft construction.

[Wizened Variations]

I remember going to the Getty Museum in LA years ago and remember being struck by how many downtowns metropolitan LA has that were visible from that viewpoint.

Perhaps more thought should be given towards new "mini" downtowns built around old malls and intersections, with lower use side streets blocked off. Concentrate on 4 to 6 story apartments/condos built adjacent to food stores within older strip malls.

While Phoenix does not have abundant older building stock that can be redeveloped to provide impetus for new construction, Phoenix, ironically, has the room to experiment with piazza centered densification and the strip malls to experiment with.

Emphasis, IMO, should be placed more on developed local nexuses with medium height buildings surrounding small public squares, like the centers of some of the instant communities built in the 00's and 90s. However, rather than do this as an instant downtown 40 miles from city center, do it close in, perhaps around a light rail station or a major bus terminal to start.

IMO, Phoenix needs to think in terms of many small urban areas, spread throughout different demographic areas serving very localized needs.

Do something like this, and, a few such projects would grow like crazy, some would die on the vine, and, some would putter along. This process, however, would cheaper than continuing to construct business, government, and art venue cathedrals, and, IMO, much more successful.

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by Phxguy

http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.co...ouse-district/

An interesting concept developing in the Warehouse district. Hopefully with the innovative design and more jobs being plopped into the area, we can start seeing apartment/loft construction.

Great article, I didn't know that company existed near the Levine Machine/ASU building. And I never really noticed their building nor the huge one they are planning to move to, but they're pretty cool. I think this is something that could definitely spur more development.

[dtnphx]

Here are a few interesting articles from Downtown Phoenix Journal about Downtown Phoenix housing and the warehouse district. There seems to be a lot of good energy flowing from downtown these days:

Urban Revolution
http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.co...an-revolution/

Downtown Housing Inventory Hits 10-year Low
http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.com/2012/11/05/downtown-housing-inventory-hits-10-year-low/

WebPT Spreads its Wings in the Warehouse District
http://www.downtownphoenixjournal.co...ouse-district/

[Jjs5056]

EDIT - I posted before finishing one of the articles. Sounds like a tech incubator is already in the works for the building on Grant/5th St. I mentioned that here as having a ton of potential, so I am glad to hear it will actually be happening! Just as usual w/ Phoenix, it's taken some great-minded entrepreneurs to get the job done. Great to hear of two more in Cowley and Jannenga.


Anyone know what's going on at Buchanan/Lincoln and Central, just north of The Duce? Google Maps shows an unfinished structure having been built and the land being worked on. I am praying it isn't just a pay station for a new parking lot, but at the same time, I also hope it isn't anything that permanent given the lack of land used for the structure. Are there no zoning rules at all in this area?

Warehouse District
I have been slightly obsessed with the Warehouse district recently and coming up with ideas for how to connect all the pieces; there's clusters of really awesome activity all around, but it's so spread out for any 'district' to come together and attract a pedestrian following.

I'm glad to see the articles posted - one of the trends I noticed is the type of companies heading to the area; I think the big problem is that the major stakeholders are focused on downtown or midtown or Roosevelt Row, and nobody is talking about anything happening south of Jefferson.

If they were, I think the following is a good agenda to start with in building/creating momentum:
1) Review of commercial sector/determine strategy to attract even more
2) Review of existing attractions and image/determine strategy for positioning the district and for how it wants this image to evolve
3) Identify gaps in downtown culture and connect to specific warehouse sites/plots
4) Identify existing structures that could be rehabbed into residential living space and developing strategy/incentive for development

Commercial Sector
There are a few industries that have definitely started to bubble up within the district recently. Any group of stakeholders would need to be asking themselves "how can we make this area even more inviting toward these kind of companies?" I'm not always sure marketing/advertising works for downtowns and think some of the past branding decisions have been wastes of money. But, for an area like the warehouse district, I think an ad campaign highlighting their lower rates, name dropping the companies that have already taken up shop, and mentioning the tax incentives for restoration projects would see a return.

The industries I see gravitating toward the district are:

1) Sustainability (NRG, ecoTality, Electric Transportation , APS H2 Pwr Park, Vintage Industrial)
2) Creative solutions (R&R advertisting, Moses advertising, Crove/Angelic Grove event planning, WebPT, e-bike distribution, RR Surplus clothing, B&P Marketing, Dudley Ventures, iiam, CCBR Architects, High Road Custom Interiors)
3) Education and Academic Assistance (American Legion, Job Corps, OIC, ASU Arts)

For Sustainability and Education/Academic Assistance, I think it's a no-brainer to get one of the schools to anchor that sector by moving their program to the area. Phoenix College, Rio Salado CC, and ASU all have a presence downtown and have programs related to sustainability. I think the co-working spaces are becoming oversaturated, but this is one area I could see it really being beneficial. Having the "Phoenix College School of Sustainability" in one of the warehouses or a new building on an empty lot, with an incubator on the ground level where reps from the above companies are invited to mentor can only bring positive results. And, it shows a commitment from Phoenix to those companies of providing qualified talent post-graduation.

For Education/Academic Assistance, these are all great programs but many are providing duplicative services. At the same time, others are providing services that the other isn't. For example, 1 doesn't provide daycare service but another does. Centralizing these organizations and operations like daycare, admissions, etc. would allow them to focus on their individualized expertise. Again, the "Maricopa Colleges Center for Learning and Community Services" could serve as the hub of all activity, act as a Community Center which is sorely lacking in the area, and take a look at each individual and figure out their distinct needs and placement. The best part is that they already offer programs in Childhood Care, and Administration, so much of the work could be done by actual students as part of their curriculum (with supervision), so costs would be minimal.

Lastly, the ASU move should be the 1st of many art programs to move. Construction, real estate, architecture, interior design... not all of these, but as colleges get strapped for space, they should seriously consider it. There's very few places in the Valley that offer a more hands-on learning opportunity in these fields.

Image and Positioning
Where I think the district would benefit from in terms of branding/marketing is in what it offers as a destination/entertainment district. I think too many look to the Roosevelt Row model and are tempted to emulate it, but cannibalizing what they've accomplished won't help either part of town in the long run. What the Warehouse District offers from an arts perspective is the opportunity to experience Phoenix's history firsthand - to see how they lived in 1905, 1928, etc. It's in the juxtaposition of that history with modern-day industry and uses. That's why there are so many event spaces: Ice House, Angelic Grove, Bentley, Madison Event Center, etc. There are very few traditional galleries and making that distinction clear is important.

I also think it's a shame that there is so little attention given to the district because the loss of nearly ALL sports-related entertainment (Coach Willie's + Legends Bar, Jacksons on 3rd) is a definite problem. No matter what progress is made in other areas to help diversify the district's economy, a strong pre/-post-game bar scene - at least on the east end of Jackson - is needed to 1) ensure we don't lose that market to the suburbs and 2) serve as a gateway to the rest of the district, show that it is safe, etc.

Aggressively Targeting Gaps
Finally, there is a huge gap in our offerings of Museums in the Valley, and especially downtown. I think there is a huge opportunity for the Warehouse District to capitalize on that gap and build off their existing assets. I find it appalling that there is no museum for the Hispanic culture's influence on Phoenix, or a museum dedicated to the Rio Salado/Hohokam > APS. There is a George Washington Carver museum on Grant in desperate need of funds, but it's a great start at showing the important of blacks in shaping south Phoenix.

1) If we can't get the Rock n Roll HOF branch back on the table, then we need to make progress in turning Sun Merc into the Chinese-American Cultural Museum: 3rd St and Jackson
2) On empty land where a large pedestrian-unfriendly building won't ruin any future chance of connectivity, a Rio Salado Museum is an absolute must, complete with indoor Riparian environments: Buchanan and 3rd Ave, south of Lincoln between 3rd and 4th Ave, north of Lincoln between 4th and 5th Street
3) No museum dedicated to the 5 C's? Given how many were impacted by the industries of the district, placing one in the Warehouse District makes total sense. Possible places: Levine 1905 Warehouse on 2nd St/UPRR, Upper levels of Chambers Warehouse on 4th Ave/Jackson, Union Station on 4th Ave/Harrison.

Other possibilities could include:
1) There's also very few museums dedicated to architecture in the Valley. Renovating a historic home and building a modern extension for "The Role, and Progression, of Architecture in the Valley Museum" would be very interesting: 1st Ave north of Lincoln - abandoned historic home and adjacent land.
2) A Hispanic tribute is needed, but should perhaps be left to that group to lead? I'm just not sure if a white-forced museum is insensitive given everything else we've messed up.

Identifying Residential Possibilities
The reason I think this is important is because, as we always talk about, the way to attract that "urban pioneer" class is by offering affordable business and living spaces through renovating existing building stock. I think there's enough warehouses of varying size to attract business, but the warehouses capable of housing enough units to be profitable are dwindling. My list includes:
1) Jackson/1st St - 4 (3+basement) story concrete structure currently owned by Levine. Beyond the existing square footage, there is also surrounding land for parking that can be built on, and a study showed that the current building can support 2 more stories on top.
2) Chambers Warehouse and Annex at 4th Ave/Jackson - looks to be at least 3 stories, though the ground level of the main building should definitely be kept for retail usage; I think the lot next to it should be residential, Campaige Place is nearby, and I would love to think Union Station will one day be at least a public amenity (park or museum)
3) Jackson/4th Ave - 2 stories + basement
4) The Gas Works buildings would make great live/work units, in my opinion, and are situated perfectly for an interior courtyard with fitness/pool and room for a new building along the western edge. However, is this possible given their current and past use?
5) Grant/5th St - both sides of Grant have warehouses that I think would make good mixed use buildings; the one to the south especially so. Again, the large setbacks could be used for new buildings and amenities.

[Jjs5056]

Originally Posted by Wizened Variations

I remember going to the Getty Museum in LA years ago and remember being struck by how many downtowns metropolitan LA has that were visible from that viewpoint.

Perhaps more thought should be given towards new "mini" downtowns built around old malls and intersections, with lower use side streets blocked off. Concentrate on 4 to 6 story apartments/condos built adjacent to food stores within older strip malls.

While Phoenix does not have abundant older building stock that can be redeveloped to provide impetus for new construction, Phoenix, ironically, has the room to experiment with piazza centered densification and the strip malls to experiment with.

Emphasis, IMO, should be placed more on developed local nexuses with medium height buildings surrounding small public squares, like the centers of some of the instant communities built in the 00's and 90s. However, rather than do this as an instant downtown 40 miles from city center, do it close in, perhaps around a light rail station or a major bus terminal to start.

IMO, Phoenix needs to think in terms of many small urban areas, spread throughout different demographic areas serving very localized needs.

Do something like this, and, a few such projects would grow like crazy, some would die on the vine, and, some would putter along. This process, however, would cheaper than continuing to construct business, government, and art venue cathedrals, and, IMO, much more successful.

This strategy has been proposed in the past, and has for the most part, failed. Downtowns exist and succeed based on the relationship of the local commercial-retail-residential market forces. You can't force demand for urban living (which a 5-story apartment in Chandler is) in an area with suburban values and a housing inventory that is comparable or cheaper to the urban option.

In Phoenix, this was proposed via "urban villages" created in the 1970s, and yet while each was supposed to have a core of its own, there are none to be found 30+ years later.

This will happen eventually and organically, and is being planned for right now through ReinventPHX by developing zoning guidelines for communities outside downtown that will be served by light rail. With those guidelines and incentives for adaptive reuse, I am sure we'll see several strip malls reconfigured throughout the Valley.

We've seen some of this happen already in Midtown and Melrose, but there still hasn't been a full remodel yet. I'd like to say that Biltmore, Town and Country, or Park Central would lead the way, but I am sure it will be a smaller and lesser-known strip mall that successfully integrates office and living spaces.

And, no - the proposals from 2009 for those 3 malls do not count as successfully converting to mixed use. Throwing luxury condos atop Macy's while still fronting major roads with a sea of asphalt is simply putting lipstick on a pig.

[Jjs5056]

Working with Michael Cowley, the owner of the current WebPT location, Brad is developing a vision for growing the tech industry in Phoenix based on building a unique campus for tech creatives in the 100,000+ sq. ft. grocery distribution warehouse next door to Levine Machine, which is also owned by Cowley. He and Cowley are working on a plan to renovate the warehouse that will retain its architectural authenticity, while simultaneously creating an expansive space for not only the still growing WebPT, but for other tech businesses, entrepreneurs, educators, and innovators. The timeline is in place for a beginning move-in next spring.

“The idea (for the new space) is to have a place where companies can come,” said Jannenga. “There are lots of tech incubators and offices in the valley now, but they are all spread out. We need a place where they can all come together….It’s an opportunity to put something on the map, to build the community,” he continued. “The people are here but they haven’t been woven together, the fabric isn’t here.”

I love that these guys are bringing such energy and momentum to the Warehouse District. But, I really want to see this area succeed the way Roosevelt Row has, because downtown in the center just hasn't "gotten it."

And, this paragraph makes me a little bit scared that someone from one industry has a hold on so many properties in such a small area. The last thing I'd want is for that entire corner of the Warehouse District to be quiet all day and dead post-5 once the techies head home to eat. Roosevelt Row has continued to stay interesting because one developer, or one stakeholder - aka, the city, as Soleri so accurately mentioned - has never gotten its arms around several contiguous pieces of property. Instead, an artist leases next to a Bodega next to lofts next to a music store... and, it's great. Roosevelt Pointe is the worst part of Roosevelt Row and it's no coincidence that it's also the largest development.

Anyway, my point is... these guys are clearly smart, motivated and have great ideas on how to revitalize the area, but I think this property in particular deserves to be more than just a techie utopia. I am hoping they plan to develop the property with an office component that is heavily geared toward tech companies and fill one of the retail/commercial spaces with this incubator concept, leaving the rest for any office/retail that needs space.

The property would be awesome if the three garage doors on the west side held 3 totally different retail uses, while the rest of the building was devoted to their tech cause, with large shaded lawns in the front for outdoor learning (and maybe a monthly 'science fair' of sorts or something)... diversity is so needed and that would be a huge win for the Carver museum next door, as opposed to a 9-5 tech office, with surface parking in the front. =/

[combusean]

Originally Posted by Jjs5056

In Phoenix, this was proposed via "urban villages" created in the 1970s, and yet while each was supposed to have a core of its own, there are none to be found 30+ years later.

This isn't true at all. Downtown is the core of Central City, Central and Thomas/midtown is the core of the Encanto village, Biltmore is the core of Camelback East. 48th/Ray is the core of Ahwatukee, Metrocenter and vicinity is the core of North Mountain, Maryvale Mall (or what was it) is the core of Maryvale ... all of these areas allow much more intense uses (namely the R-5, C-3, HR, and MR zoning districts) than the rest of the village proper and it shows.

Even when the village came after the buildings, they allowed such densities by right moving forward and the market has absolutely built to those limits. The midrises in all those village cores would not be allowed elsewhere, 44th St being the notable exception to the rule. Phoenix has already zoned empty land for highrises in the desert dozens of miles north of downtown in whatever village that is and the Laveen village has a core off the would be 202 on 51st Ave i think, and last I checked that was all farmland.