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  #6021  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2014, 4:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reachforthesky View Post
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58...eries.html.csp




Look at how much rail was once downtown. Its unbelievable!


http://perspectivesonthenews.blogs.d...c-development/
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  #6022  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2014, 4:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Old&New View Post
That map depresses me, as always. Central City. The Avenues. Capitol Hill. Harvard/Yale, Sugar House, Poplar Grove, Glendale. This city would be so much more stellar with these lines still in place.

Yet the second the city proposes resurrecting the number 10 line up 1100 East, people act as if it's the end of the world. Priorities, people.

Most interesting in that article, though, is the following quote:

Quote:
I probably will ride the trolley to Sugar House occasionally, to go to lunch or do some shopping. But I’m a skeptic when it comes to the claims that rail leads to economic development.
Jay Evensen must be eating his hat.
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  #6023  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2014, 4:36 PM
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If only there had been some type of seer in the city, with political clout, that could have seen the future benefit of maintaining the trolley system.
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  #6024  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2014, 4:59 PM
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That is impressive, but I have to wonder if Salt Lake Could support such a system now, considering the dependency of vehicles? It is really unfortunate that they got rid of the lines.
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  #6025  
Old Posted Oct 13, 2014, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by EPdesign View Post
That is impressive, but I have to wonder if Salt Lake Could support such a system now, considering the dependency of vehicles? It is really unfortunate that they got rid of the lines.
in most cases, if not all, the lines were just paved over.
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  #6026  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2014, 5:40 AM
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Did any major US cities keep their streetcar systems largely intact? All of the cities I can think of that had street-level trains at the advent of the automobile tore them out. The exceptions would be New York and Chicago, which were already in the process of moving to subway and/or elevated trains, but even they got rid of the rest of their streetcars. And I know San Francisco kept their cable cars of course...there have to be others that kept them. Or maybe not. 'merica loves their cars.
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  #6027  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2014, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by jedikermit View Post
Did any major US cities keep their streetcar systems largely intact? All of the cities I can think of that had street-level trains at the advent of the automobile tore them out. The exceptions would be New York and Chicago, which were already in the process of moving to subway and/or elevated trains, but even they got rid of the rest of their streetcars. And I know San Francisco kept their cable cars of course...there have to be others that kept them. Or maybe not. 'merica loves their cars.
San Fransisco is famous for keeping their trolleys. Philadelphia has 6 trolley lines still running and has maintained the tracks for two others to resume trolley usage in the future. I believe New Orleans still has an active line as well.
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  #6028  
Old Posted Oct 14, 2014, 7:52 PM
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San Francisco has a large portion of the same lines that were laid in the teens and 20s. In manys case the original right of way is still used and the tunnels from the central business district to the western addition were all built in the teens and 20s last century. PCC streetcars ran on those lines until the late 70s when the downtown lines were added to market street when BART was tunneled at the completion of the BART tunnel under Market Street. The PCC streetcars cars were retired and Boeing LRVs were purchased starting the LRV era in San Francisco. Additonally in 2000 streetcars returned to the street on Market in the form of vintage trolleys including the PCC cars that had been retired in the 1970s.

(different from the cable cars that have existed in some form since the 1870s)

1940s


2010s

Both images SFMTA archive

MUNI and BART are my hometown transit systems systems. Makes dealing with UTA quite painful.
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  #6029  
Old Posted Oct 15, 2014, 7:49 AM
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As great as it would be, Salt Lake City could never compare to San Francisco. San Francisco is basically unique among American cities, especially on the west coast.
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  #6030  
Old Posted Oct 16, 2014, 3:03 AM
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As great as it would be, Salt Lake City could never compare to San Francisco. San Francisco is basically unique among American cities, especially on the west coast.
Nobody was comparing SLC to SF.
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  #6031  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2014, 2:55 AM
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^^^
Certainly not comparing SLC to SF in size or scope, but the comparison of 'SF kept their historic streetcars and cable cars going while SLC tore them up in favor of sprawl' is a completely valid comparison. SF made a much better choice than SLC in this regard. I'm not sure SLC could support a streetcar system as vast is it had in its heyday, but one or two of those lines operating historic equipment at high headways would have made SLC a much different place than it is today.
I would take time to be sad, but I'd rather say that we'll get them back. Eventually.

Meanwhile, what with the development soon to happen at the South Jordan FrontRunner station, I thought I would take my own shot at the South Jordan/Sandy connector. I know several people have posted plans for a fix-route connection between those two stations, which is good because they are only a mile apart and connection through the 'downtown' Sandy is such an obvious one to make. Here's my proposal:

1) Create a 'new' Trax line from the downtown SLC (Intermodal Hub or maybe even the U) to Sandy Civic Center. This new line will double the headways of the blue line from downtown to Sandy, and take some stress off that line - meaning the blue line can run fewer cars per train. This is important, because once the blue line is extended south to Lehi and Utah county, running 4-car trains over the point of the mountain will make very little sense.

2) Once this new line is in operation from downtown to Sandy Civic Center, a 1.3 mile new alignment can be constructed to 'downtown' Sandy, with one track on each side of the grassy mall. One stop would be near the city hall building on the north end of the mall, and another stop would be on the south end, near the South Towne mall. Hopefully this alignment uses exclusive transit lanes, center-running where possible.
From there the new alignment will be reduced to 1 track to save costs. There will be a bridge over I-15 and over the railroad tracks to an elevated platform on the west side of the FrontRunner tracks. Trax trains running 10-15 minutes apart will enter the station, trade operators, and depart northbound to downtown in a matter of minutes, negating the need for a second track, an island platform, or tail tracks (if they need car storage tracks they have one already just south of Sandy Civic Center station). The Trax station will need stairs and a ramp (or possibly escalators and an elevator) to connect to the FrontRunner station aproximately 20 feet below.
The single track portion is 0.3 miles long, and the double track portion is approximately 1 mile long, meaning 2.3 miles of track total construction. The bridge and elevated station (built on fill material) would make this project much more expensive, but the advantages would be enormous. For example, REAL fans traveling to a game from the south can get off FrontRunner, board the Trax, go 4 stops, and walk the block to their game.
The new alignment would look something like this:

Thoughts? Flaws?
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  #6032  
Old Posted Oct 19, 2014, 6:14 PM
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  #6033  
Old Posted Oct 21, 2014, 1:03 AM
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Also a swell arrangement. The important part is that it is a TRAX line that connects back to the main trunk line and then returns north. That is the only solution I see that really adds any connectivity to that area.
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  #6034  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 3:46 AM
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UTAH has announced the Bangerter Station, a TOD located adjacent to the Jordan Valley TRAX at 3200 W. 9000, near the Bangerter Expy in West Jordan City.
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  #6035  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 1:10 PM
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Every time I am at the intermodal hub I feel like whoever designed the main building and warehouse got a description of early deconstructivism that Sandy or Draper approved.
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  #6036  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 6:10 PM
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I'd like to know when, if ever, development around the hub is going to occur. They leveled all the crumbling buildings that were around it, and now it's just vacant lots. With demand for rentals and hotel rooms so high right now, I'm surprised there has been nothing done here yet. We saw preliminary plans for the area a long time ago. Anyone know anything about this?
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  #6037  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 7:43 PM
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I prefer Hatman's alignment, with tracks running down each side of the lawn. I think it would make more sense as a streetcar than Light Rail. Regardless, Sandy's "downtown" is a joke.
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  #6038  
Old Posted Oct 23, 2014, 8:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SLCdude View Post
I prefer Hatman's alignment, with tracks running down each side of the lawn. I think it would make more sense as a streetcar than Light Rail. Regardless, Sandy's "downtown" is a joke.
The circulator could be a streetcar... and it runs on both sides of the lawn. Or it could just be a tacky rubber-tire trolley, which would fit right in.
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  #6039  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 6:20 AM
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I've done some thinking about the MVC.

Why are we funding such an expensive project the way we currently are? A 10 lane freeway to cost 2 billion dollars. It's needed because of the lack of E-W freeways but honestly I think those 2 billion can go to somewhere better than the final stages of the MVC. Why not build it as a turnpike or something like E-470 (albeit a more ambitious project)? If people want to live out by Porter Rockwell Blvd or the Oquirh Bench they should have to pay for it. We wouldn't have to have such a high toll as denver (let's say in its entirety from Lehi to the international center it would be 5.00 during congestion, 4.75 semicongested, and 2.50 no congestion). We can't expect to have clean , healthy air and transit oriented high density neighborhoods if John Smith can get in his Kia and drive to his accounting job in the COB every day and back again to his tan house on a .25 acre lot that is going to rot and fall over in 35 years. And for that matter, I think that the MVC (can we pick a different name? Southwest Turnpike? Oquirrh Freeway? And right now as Oquirrh Parkway?) transit corridor needs to be built differently with the BRT serving 5600 W as it is right now BUT the BRT remaining as they build the light rail in the middle of the freeway. No one has time for 5600 W. And it wont be more expensive if they take care of shit now like they haven't been doing (but first we need to do an alternatives analysis on what font to pick for the EIS to decide how rearranging the UTA and UDOT offices affects the community) so they can build transit cheap and make transit work for everyone. Just have it operate in the median or outside of the frontages, take away a lane on the freeway. I don't care, as long as it isn't more cars. oh, and about all of the freeways planned for Utah Cunty? (Especially the Utah Lake Crossings) TOLL ROAD TOLL ROAD TOLL ROAD! Legacy parkway was good because of how restricted it was. Now we can move in to toll roads and take the 15 billion dollars away from freeways and commuter lanes and complex intersections and move it to stopping lehi from continuing to lehi (can you walk the Timpanogos highway? HHM?) and cedar valley from continuing to cedar valley and buildng transit. We have an opportunity but I think we are going to fuck up again.
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  #6040  
Old Posted Oct 24, 2014, 6:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jubguy3 View Post
I've done some thinking about the MVC.

Why are we funding such an expensive project the way we currently are? A 10 lane freeway to cost 2 billion dollars. It's needed because of the lack of E-W freeways but honestly I think those 2 billion can go to somewhere better than the final stages of the MVC. Why not build it as a turnpike or something like E-470 (albeit a more ambitious project)? If people want to live out by Porter Rockwell Blvd or the Oquirh Bench they should have to pay for it. We wouldn't have to have such a high toll as denver (let's say in its entirety from Lehi to the international center it would be 5.00 during congestion, 4.75 semicongested, and 2.50 no congestion). We can't expect to have clean , healthy air and transit oriented high density neighborhoods if John Smith can get in his Kia and drive to his accounting job in the COB every day and back again to his tan house on a .25 acre lot that is going to rot and fall over in 35 years. And for that matter, I think that the MVC (can we pick a different name? Southwest Turnpike? Oquirrh Freeway? And right now as Oquirrh Parkway?) transit corridor needs to be built differently with the BRT serving 5600 W as it is right now BUT the BRT remaining as they build the light rail in the middle of the freeway. No one has time for 5600 W. And it wont be more expensive if they take care of shit now like they haven't been doing (but first we need to do an alternatives analysis on what font to pick for the EIS to decide how rearranging the UTA and UDOT offices affects the community) so they can build transit cheap and make transit work for everyone. Just have it operate in the median or outside of the frontages, take away a lane on the freeway. I don't care, as long as it isn't more cars. oh, and about all of the freeways planned for Utah Cunty? (Especially the Utah Lake Crossings) TOLL ROAD TOLL ROAD TOLL ROAD! Legacy parkway was good because of how restricted it was. Now we can move in to toll roads and take the 15 billion dollars away from freeways and commuter lanes and complex intersections and move it to stopping lehi from continuing to lehi (can you walk the Timpanogos highway? HHM?) and cedar valley from continuing to cedar valley and buildng transit. We have an opportunity but I think we are going to fuck up again.
Never... Gonna... Happen. This is Utah. The legislature's job is passing money to the big 3 road construction firms on a regular basis, and enabling sprawl to enrich suburban fringe landowners is okay too. Remember also the legislature has a habit of doing all they can to stick it to SLC. Granted its been better recently than in the Rocky days but the legislature still hates anything remotely associated with smart growth, air quality, and well funded transit. Sure we built out a decent system, but that was just pushing money to the contractors. Actually FUNDING a decent level of service and operating the system plays into the "liberal" agenda of supporting labor unions who actually drive and support the vehicles.
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