Stadiums & Arenas of Canada, Part 3

[WhipperSnapper]

New arenas have been built smaller than older arenas. Sellouts are desirable for creating buzz, atmosphere and, ultimately, ticket value. What good is a large arena if you have to give away tickets to fill it up?

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

It does happen. Hamilton rebuilt a stadium with a smaller capacity from Ivor Wynne. Ottawa did a partial rebuild of their stadium with a smaller capacity. Calgary's new arena (before cancellation) would have had a smaller capacity than the Saddledome.

In fairness, the original comment included the underlined portion "I don't know much about the arena situation in other provinces but has a city ever built an arena or stadium smaller than what they already have already just to have a splashy new arena"

Yes those examples were (or would have been) replaced by "smaller" facilities, but only in terms of seating capacity. Take Ivor Wynne Stadium -- the capacity of Tim Hortons Field is about 5,000 less, but it has a larger footprint, bigger seats (those old benches had minimal leg room and were *very* crowded if IWS was ever close to capacity), more amenity space, and more than 1,000 club seats that didn't exist in the old structure. Similar outcome in Ottawa, despite keeping the north stand (I recall it had benches too).

The old buildings were also decrepit and in Ottawa's case there was only half a stadium remaining when TD Place was built.

There was an opportunity to right size, but not just for capacity but for current standards and features too.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

Fantastic to see BC well represented in CPL, we just need a team in the Interior next.

A lot of posturing by Winnipeg posters about Saskatoon getting a newer, possibly larger arena, I wonder why.

This may sound like a stupid question but has building those larger arenas in Canada always been about getting an NHL team. I know Winnipeg, Hamilton and Quebec City's arenas were mostly as a lure for the NHL but has that always been the case?

Cities in the USA similar size to Saskatoon like Lubbock Texas and Lincoln Nebraska have newer same sized arenas and similar to SaskTel Centre but I don't even know if they have icemaking capabilities to make it an ice rink for the NHL. Other cities like Madison Wisconsin and Fargo North Dakota have even larger indoor arenas stadiums. FargoDome would be the largest permanent roofed stadium in Canada if it were north of the border, bigger than Bell Centre in Montreal or Toronto's Air Canada Centre. I don't think the size of city really has anything to do with what size of facility built, just as long as it's a good investment and it gets used a lot, which I believe places like that have, including Saskatoon.

I don't know much about the arena situation in other provinces but has a city ever built an arena or stadium smaller than what they already have already just to have a splashy new arena.
My guess is if Saskatoon doesn't build a larger arena then that Rush lacrosse team will just stay in the higher capacity arena for more ticket sales like they have, to begin with. Since that province ponied up big for building that Rider Stadium in Regina, Saskatoon will be gunning for just as much financial support for new arena in Saskatoon, just my guess.

Quick look at SaskTel Centre website to see if it gets much usage other than NLL, WHL, CEBL and it looks like a fairly brisk concert schedule. Busier to be sure than the arena in London Ontario but not much less than Roger's Arena in Vancouver. Side note, how many venues in Ontario are named Budweiser Centre anyway...

Saskatoon can build whatever it wants, I just don't see the point of building a NHL/NBA sized building if you're never going to attract a NHL or NBA team. I mean, maybe I'm wrong and Saskatoon has an inside track on one of those franchises, but I certainly haven't heard anything to that effect. And does the odd concert really justify the massive incremental cost of jumping from a 11,000 seat to an 18,000 seat arena? Maybe if you're the promoter, but if you're a taxpayer? Not so much.

Quebec City, on the other hand, is well known as a contender for a NHL franchise... so in their case it makes sense to have a building ready to go for when the NHL comes calling.

But seeing as I'm not the one paying the bills on any building on Saskatoon, I certainly have no problem with that city building a spectacular 25,000 seat gold-leafed, crystal chandeliered palace of a rink. I'll even make a weekend of it to watch the ICE play the Blades there.

I think we need SaskScraper to weigh in here

[esquire]

Originally Posted by ericmacm

It's pretty evident that right now the CPL will only crop up where interested owners approach the league. As much as I hate to say it (since I really badly want to see more teams in SW Ontario), ownership is going to be hard to find in these cities. It took the commissioner stepping down and becoming an owner just to get the ball moving on a team in Windsor, and it's going to take a lot more to get teams in London and Kitchener too.

I wonder why there are no prospective owners stepping up in those cities? You would think teams in the cities I mentioned could do reasonably well. The population is certainly there to support franchises.

[drew]

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

A lot of posturing by Winnipeg posters about Saskatoon getting a newer, possibly larger arena, I wonder why.

Saskatoon can have at 'er.

I think if Saskatoon was to build a new facility, it probably should be around the 15k mark. That seems to me to be the minimum size for a venue that can attract any kind of arena sport, tournament or concert tour - with a large capacity lower bowl for regular use, and upper deck opened when necessary.

Canada Life Centre in Winnipeg started out it's life with the upper deck curtained off for nearly a decade. I am not even sure it was built with the intention of getting the NHL back, because at the time it would have been considered about 5,000 seats too small.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by drew

Saskatoon can have at 'er.

I think if Saskatoon was to build a new facility, it probably should be around the 15k mark. That seems to me to be the minimum size for a venue that can attract any kind of arena sport, tournament or concert tour - with a large capacity lower bowl for regular use, and upper deck opened when necessary.

Canada Life Centre in Winnipeg started out it's life with the upper deck curtained off for nearly a decade. I am not even sure it was built with the intention of getting the NHL back, because at the time it would have been considered about 5,000 seats too small.

On that last point, I'm pretty sure that I recall seeing some sort of "how the Jets came back" documentary a while back when someone from TNSE said that the arena's final design was intended to be able to support a NHL franchise if and when that opportunity arose. When the rink first opened though, that wasn't the public sentiment... the general feeling was that 15,000 seats was simply too small for the modern day NHL. The only media personality I can remember saying that it could support a NHL franchise right from the very beginning was Don Cherry, of all people, who remarked on Coach's Corner that "they didn't build that for the AHL", or words to that effect.

As I recall, it wasn't until the Coyotes and Penguins started floundering in the mid-late 2000s (which coincided with the CAD rising significantly against the USD) that serious public talk began of the NHL returning to Winnipeg. That was a few years after the then-MTS Centre had opened.

But yes, you are right, from 2004-2011 the upper deck at Canada Life Centre was generally only used for concerts and a couple Manitoba Moose games a year.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

On that last point, I'm pretty sure that I recall seeing some sort of "how the Jets came back" documentary a while back when someone from TNSE said that the arena's final design was intended to be able to support a NHL franchise if and when that opportunity arose. When the rink first opened though, that wasn't the public sentiment... the general feeling was that 15,000 seats was simply too small for the modern day NHL. The only media personality I can remember saying that it could support a NHL franchise right from the very beginning was Don Cherry, of all people, who remarked on Coach's Corner that "they didn't build that for the AHL", or words to that effect.

As I recall, it wasn't until the Coyotes and Penguins started floundering in the mid-late 2000s (which coincided with the CAD rising significantly against the USD) that serious public talk began of the NHL returning to Winnipeg. That was a few years after the then-MTS Centre had opened.

But yes, you are right, from 2004-2011 the upper deck at Canada Life Centre was generally only used for concerts and a couple Manitoba Moose games a year.

Arenas of 10-15k are kind of no-man’s land of hockey arenas in much of Canada. SaskTel Centre and MTS Place are the only ones I can think of.

One can easily see the justification for the <10k ones in the smaller cities of Canada (Centre Avenir, Mile One Centre, Budweiser Centre).

Over 15k, and one is playing with real money and real intent to go pro. A handful of concerts does not justify the huge jump in cost for an 18k rink.

I don’t know the cost/size ratio breaks down exactly in construction, but the paucity of them seems to indicate the marginal benefits aren’t worth their increased cost.

That is for the people of Saskatoon to decide, though

[EpicPonyTime]

Y'all need to stop this hypothesizing of why Saskatoon would want to build a 18K seating arena. No one is saying that's going to happen.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by EpicPonyTime

Y'all need to stop this hypothesizing of why Saskatoon would want to build a 18K seating arena. No one is saying that's going to happen.

Where do you think a new arena would end up, capacity wise?

10k, sure. 15k? Maybe? Not sure how the cost scales from 10 to 15k, and if the value is there.

That being said, downtown is the best place for that amenity, not in the ‘burbs.

[JustForTheHalibut]

Originally Posted by Denscity

Vancouver happenings this weekend:

World Rugby 7s at BC Place
Billie Jean King tennis at the Pacific Coliseum
Slipknot with guests play Roger's Arena Sunday night.

Interesting you mentioned the Western Canadian tour of Slipknot, Their drummer died last year, but they're back on the road for 2022.

The Foo Fighters had to cancel their tour in Canada this year because their drummer Taylor Hawkins died a couple weeks ago, the day before they were announced to be on the Grammies.

https://exclaim.ca/music/article/foo...taylor_hawkins

I had tickets to their Penticton show


https://exclaim.ca/music/article/sli...nada_tour_2022

Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy

It does happen. Hamilton rebuilt a stadium with a smaller capacity from Ivor Wynne. Ottawa did a partial rebuild of their stadium with a smaller capacity. Calgary's new arena (before cancellation) would have had a smaller capacity than the Saddledome.

In 2019 (last year prior to Covid), London's arena outdrew Saskatoon's by a significant margin. It is the busier arena despite having the smaller capacity. Grand Rapids arena, with it's configuration and smaller capacity was 58th on the top-200 busiest arenas list, drawing nearly 3 times more ticket sales than Sasktel Centre.

https://data.pollstar.com/chart/2019...Arenas_797.pdf

WhipperSnapper is not from Winnipeg.

That's food for thought, I wonder how SaskTel Centre had only an attendance of 154,000 people in 2019.
Is that just for the Rush NLL attendance that season or is it just for the WHL Blades home games attendance only. I don't know which.

Sorry, for some reason I thought Whipper was from Winni.

Originally Posted by Djeffery

Are you sure? I have only heard about a westward expansion of the "back of house" area, where they keep putting up a temporary structure in the parking lot when they have events like the CCMA, Junos or other large scale events. I haven't heard a thing about the seating area being expanded, other than many people wish it was built larger in the first place. Although I'm not sure that area is where the seats needed to be. That area is generally closed for concerts unless they are the type that don't close off behind the stage, or in the round type shows.

The only media story I find about it is from 9 years ago and it mentioned the tent they set up for the World Figure Skating championships and said the arena would need something permanent to be able to compete for large events. Since then, we have had another Memorial Cup, the Junos, and 2 CCMA's, so maybe they figure we are fine they way they do it now. Of course, the building is 20 years old now and will be needing some money spent on it, so maybe this will end up being part of that.

https://london.ctvnews.ca/bud-garden...1120841373c245

I looked on Google maps view and looks like Budweiser Gardens is horseshoe shaped, if they added extra building and seats on the end about how much would the arena's capacity be I wonder?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Where do you think a new arena would end up, capacity wise?

10k, sure. 15k? Maybe? Not sure how the cost scales from 10 to 15k, and if the value is there.

That being said, downtown is the best place for that amenity, not in the ‘burbs.

If I'm a Saskatoon taxpayer: keep the existing building and renovate it, as there is nothing wrong with it, and it is more than sufficient for the current mix of WHL/NLL/concerts.

As a Winnipegger with no stake in it: build an identical Rogers Place replica right in the heart of downtown Saskatoon.

[Dalreg]

As someone from the province of Saskatchewan, we kindly accept all your comments Winnipeg. We promise not to build too nice of arena and make yours look old and shabby, but then maybe we will cross our fingers behind our back and do it anyways.

[WhipperSnapper]

Did someone say monorail? I don't think Winnipeg has one.

[Djeffery]

Originally Posted by JustForTheHalibut

I looked on Google maps view and looks like Budweiser Gardens is horseshoe shaped, if they added extra building and seats on the end about how much would the arena's capacity be I wonder?

Yes, the upper level is a horseshoe. That end of the arena is the back of house, where the loading docks and dressing rooms are and this is the end where the concert stage would be erected. The lower level seats retract so that the stage front would be approx where the hockey net at that end would be. They really tried to maximize the number of seats in the rest of the arena for concerts with the setup they did. Almost anything is possible with the right construction budget, and if the building was going to be expanded to the west for more back of house space, then it's conceivable that they could add the missing link in the upper seating bowl above that space. Whether it makes financial sense is the question though.

All it would really do is add maybe 1000 hockey seats at the most. The upper level already isn't that big, maybe 2500-3000 seats, 90% of which are usable for concerts. Adding another 1000 seats in that area doesn't really add to most concert capacities, unless you are a show like I went to with Shania Twain, whose stage was at center ice and the whole arena was used. Those type of setups are rare though. I'm sure the costs of that type of addition wouldn't be justified in the additional hockey revenue. I doubt the Knights would be willing to kick in on that either.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by esquire

Looking at the CPL map in the article linked to above, it looks as though the league is growing nicely. Although I find it somewhat odd that it hasn't yet made its way into the Southern Ontario cities that appear to have the population to support the CPL and don't already have pro sports, e.g. London, K-W, Windsor. Seems to me that the CPL could do quite well there. They have certainly grabbed the attention of people in Victoria.

Two things:

1) COVID put a dent in a few of the bids that were looking at CPL.
2) CPL's growth trajectory, and its inclusion with CSB, combined with the rise of CMNT and CWNT has lead to demand beyond what was originally anticipated. What COVID undid has been undone, or so it seems. This has reportedly pushed expansion fees up higher than what a few of the original groups who didn't get teams were willing or able to put up.

With that said, there are a few groups in League1Ontario (L1O) who have openly stated that they're interested in pursuing a CPL team.

• Electric City FC (Peterborough), beginning this season and playing at Fleming College;
• Simcoe County Rovers (Barrie), beginning this season with a slew of investors and owners on board, playing out of Georgian College;
• Guelph United, winners of last year's season and hosting HFX Wanderers in a few weeks. They play out of Alumni Stadium at U Guelph.

I think Pickering have big aspirations, too, but I don't think they're at the level of these three.


Fleming College on the Eastern outskirts of Peterborough


Alumni Stadium in Guelph

L1O is restructuring towards promotion and relegation for 2024, with the next two seasons being used as an aggregate sorter for the future three leagues. Teams like these have high aspirations and will surely end up near the top. This process will certainly make the step up to CPL much more likely after a few years operating at a high level in L1O.

Between L1O, L1BC coming online this year, and PLSQ, there's been a lot of medium-sized growth coming along underneath the growth with the CPL. If CPL is able to add both Langley and Saskatchewan and successfully move York United to Rexdale then things will be looking good. It already seems like it's got a good footing in Victoria and Halifax with stadium expansions in both of those markets.

London and KW do seem like easy shoe-ins, but without owners and stadiums the plans won't go far, and it's becoming increasingly likely that any team entering CPL from Ontario will first have to cut its teeth in L1O for a few years. Windsor is of course being protected courted by the league's now former commissioner.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Arenas of 10-15k are kind of no-man’s land of hockey arenas in much of Canada. SaskTel Centre and MTS Place are the only ones I can think of.

• Scotiabank Centre in Halifax
• TD Place Arena in Ottawa
• Coca-Cola Coliseum in Toronto
• Budweiser Gardens in London
• Place Bell in Laval (which cost $200M in 2017 $)

Originally Posted by thewave46

I don’t know the cost/size ratio breaks down exactly in construction, but the paucity of them seems to indicate the marginal benefits aren’t worth their increased cost.

That is for the people of Saskatoon to decide, though

A lot of it depends on how its designed, either primarily with general seating, luxury boxes, or a combination of both. I got into this argument wrt Calgary's proposed arena and why it would be wiser to downsize the total capacity of the arena in favour of adding many more luxury boxes. Sports teams are not currently in the business of building new venues with higher capacities unless their old venues were incredibly substandard in some way. I don't see the purpose in Saskatoon building a larger arena than what they currently have.

If I were to make a bet i'd say Saskatoon ends up with a new arena around 12,500 or so, but don't take my word as anything other than a guess. The current arena is too large and downsizing too far below the current capacity would probably not be great for the ego.

For those keeping track at home, here are recent builds in Canada:

• 2021: Colisee Videotron in Trois-Rivieres (4,390)
• 2021: Centre Slush Puppie in Gatineau (4,080)
• 2018: Avenir Centre in Moncton (8,800)
• 2018: Merlis Belsher Place in Saskatoon (2,700)
• 2017: Place Bell in Laval (10,000)

[esquire]

^ Minor quibble, Wikipedia lists Coca-Cola Coliseum as having 7,851 seats for hockey, so a fair bit below the 10,000 threshold. Even Ottawa Civic Centre or whatever they call it now is under the 10,000 mark with 9,862 listed as the capacity... I'm not sure what caused it to be downsized below 10,000. Budweiser Gardens is listed at 9,036.

It's kind of an odd quirk that Toronto doesn't have a second 16,000+ seat arena... most North American metros of a certain size (around approximately 3,000,000 or more residents) have them. I guess Copps Coliseum is sort of the de facto secondary arena, although it's so far from downtown Toronto as to push the limits of what one would expect in terms of location for such a venue. There are closer secondary venues like Paramount Fine Foods Centre and Coca Cola Coliseum, but they are too small for major events.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by JHikka

L1O is restructuring towards promotion and relegation for 2024, with the next two seasons being used as an aggregate sorter for the future three leagues. Teams like these have high aspirations and will surely end up near the top. This process will certainly make the step up to CPL much more likely after a few years operating at a high level in L1O.

Between L1O, L1BC coming online this year, and PLSQ, there's been a lot of medium-sized growth coming along underneath the growth with the CPL. If CPL is able to add both Langley and Saskatchewan and successfully move York United to Rexdale then things will be looking good. It already seems like it's got a good footing in Victoria and Halifax with stadium expansions in both of those markets.

London and KW do seem like easy shoe-ins, but without owners and stadiums the plans won't go far, and it's becoming increasingly likely that any team entering CPL from Ontario will first have to cut its teeth in L1O for a few years. Windsor is of course being protected courted by the league's now former commissioner.

That's an advantage of soccer's structure for sure, some communities that might be considered more as having an outside shot at the CPL can nurture their fanbases at a lower level before stepping up. That will give those communities a chance to build the appropriate infrastructure necessary to do that. It will be interesting to see how things go over the next few years with L1 Ontario.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ Minor quibble, Wikipedia lists Coca-Cola Coliseum as having 7,851 seats for hockey, so a fair bit below the 10,000 threshold. Even Ottawa Civic Centre or whatever they call it now is under the 10,000 mark with 9,862 listed as the capacity... I'm not sure what caused it to be downsized below 10,000. Budweiser Gardens is listed at 9,036.

It's kind of an odd quirk that Toronto doesn't have a second 16,000+ seat arena... most North American metros of a certain size (around approximately 3,000,000 or more residents) have them. I guess Copps Coliseum is sort of the de facto secondary arena, although it's so far from downtown Toronto as to push the limits of what one would expect in terms of location for such a venue. There are closer secondary venues like Paramount Fine Foods Centre and Coca Cola Coliseum, but they are too small for major events.

Because MLSE has a monopoly and they want to keep it.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Because MLSE has a monopoly and they want to keep it.

Sure, but they can't force someone not to build another arena. I mean, they are powerful but they're not THAT powerful. I suspect it is more a happy coincidence for MLSE that it worked out that way.

It's easy to imagine situations where a second arena might have gone up... had the WHA taken root and lasted a few more years maybe the Toros would have built an arena somewhere in the 'burbs back in the late 70s. Or had MLG not purchased the Raptors there could have been two arenas downtown, which nearly happened.