Gas Prices

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jlousa

You can believe what you wish but there is a serious concern within the conservative business world about being about to procure battery packs long term. No one is doubting you can get a pack 5-7yrs after the vehicle purchase, the issue is will you be able to buy something in 15yrs? Perhaps a third party could create a compatible pack for the more popular models if the manufactor doesn't go after them, but how good will it be, and who will bother with the less popular models. Standardization will eventually have to happen on the battery front before things really take off.

That's actually a good point. It's hard to find vacuum cleaner bags from a model 5-7 years old - sooner or later they'll need to make a universal battery and charger.

[s211]

Originally Posted by whatnext

How many people expect their vehicle to last 20 years?

Anybody that can't afford to replace their car? I'm on year 15.5, and count myself in that category.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That's actually a good point. It's hard to find vacuum cleaner bags from a model 5-7 years old - sooner or later they'll need to make a universal battery and charger.

There's already charging standards. And batteries are all 400V, except the new Porsche model that is 800V, which will have trouble catching on, though it only matters for fast charging.

[jlousa]

The charging standard isn't all that standard. You can charge a Telsa on a "regular" charger with an adapter but you can't charge a non-Tesla on one of their chargers. Telsa is in town right now heavily pushing their superchargers onto property owners free of charge. They have offered us 20 superchargers free of charge. The catch is those spots must be reserved for only Teslas. Suffice to say that's a deal breaker and would alienate most parkers.
I fully expect it's only a matter of time before something like a USB standard take place where you have two way communication between the charger and car and you start at a low charge and gradually increase voltage and current as allowed by the car. I expect Europe to be the leaders in making this happen.
Even on the battery front, the final voltage being 400V or 800V doesn't really matter to the end consumer, it's how you get to that voltage and the batteries that need to be standardized. Again I see Europe probably being the ones that push ahead with standardization before the US does.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by jlousa

The charging standard isn't all that standard. You can charge a Telsa on a "regular" charger with an adapter but you can't charge a non-Tesla on one of their chargers. Telsa is in town right now heavily pushing their superchargers onto property owners free of charge. They have offered us 20 superchargers free of charge. The catch is those spots must be reserved for only Teslas. Suffice to say that's a deal breaker and would alienate most parkers.
I fully expect it's only a matter of time before something like a USB standard take place where you have two way communication between the charger and car and you start at a low charge and gradually increase voltage and current as allowed by the car. I expect Europe to be the leaders in making this happen.
Even on the battery front, the final voltage being 400V or 800V doesn't really matter to the end consumer, it's how you get to that voltage and the batteries that need to be standardized. Again I see Europe probably being the ones that push ahead with standardization before the US does.

Interesting.

It is crazy there isn't a single standard. But then it's crazy some countries till use right-hand drive. Wasn't VW supposed to launch some big charger project as part of their penance for Dieselgate?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Interesting.

It is crazy there isn't a single standard. But then it's crazy some countries till use right-hand drive. Wasn't VW supposed to launch some big charger project as part of their penance for Dieselgate?

There are standards. Tesla has a proprietary connection that has more capability, including supercharging, but the cars are also compatible with the standards that everybody else uses.

Where it gets tricky is internationally. There are competing standards in Europe and Asia, but cars made for those markets comply with them. DC Fast Charging is where it really matters.

Electricity is pretty universal. Adapters are either available or can be made available for almost anything.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by s211

Anybody that can't afford to replace their car? I'm on year 15.5, and count myself in that category.

My 1994 van looks great and starts every time. I can even do a lot of the maintenance and repairs myself. Yes, never cars might be more efficient but I am the original owner and have got my money's worth for sure.

I can't see EV completely replacing ICE anytime soon. Lots of people drive trucks pulling RV's. That would take incredible energy driving that through the mountains. They would need a new power source other than batteries to generate enough juice. Cost would also be a huge factor.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

My 1994 van looks great and starts every time. I can even do a lot of the maintenance and repairs myself. Yes, never cars might be more efficient but I am the original owner and have got my money's worth for sure.

I can't see EV completely replacing ICE anytime soon. Lots of people drive trucks pulling RV's. That would take incredible energy driving that through the mountains. They would need a new power source other than batteries to generate enough juice. Cost would also be a huge factor.

That's where hybrids come in. Using the electric motor for regular driving and use the ICE for heavier duty hauling. Make use of the regenerative braking system from the greater weight that needs to slow down to keep the battery going.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

That's where hybrids come in. Using the electric motor for regular driving and use the ICE for heavier duty hauling. Make use of the regenerative braking system from the greater weight that needs to slow down to keep the battery going.

Hybrids make much more sense but the EV people are not talking about hybrids. They want a total switch cutting out fossil fuels completely. Reasonably priced hybrids might be the way to go to cover the needs of most people, especially when heavier vehicles are involved.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

My 1994 van looks great and starts every time. I can even do a lot of the maintenance and repairs myself. Yes, never cars might be more efficient but I am the original owner and have got my money's worth for sure.

My 1993 van is the same. But it would take just the most trivial accident for ICBC to write it off because in their eyes it's essentially worthless. That's a reflection of the general market - nobody is going to pay more than a few hundred bucks for a van that's over 25 years old no matter how good it looks.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

Hybrids make much more sense but the EV people are not talking about hybrids. They want a total switch cutting out fossil fuels completely. Reasonably priced hybrids might be the way to go to cover the needs of most people, especially when heavier vehicles are involved.

Hybrids make less sense than you think on a consumer car. They're usually a compromise... and when you're using one of the engines you're dragging around the weight and using the space up of the other. Although I see thinks like BMW's REX hybrids are a bit more useful. Those are effectively range extenders and the gas engines are a bolt on ( option ) to extend range.

Hybrid cars add complexity.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Hybrids make less sense than you think on a consumer car. They're usually a compromise... and when you're using one of the engines you're dragging around the weight and using the space up of the other. Although I see thinks like BMW's REX hybrids are a bit more useful. Those are effectively range extenders and the gas engines are a bolt on ( option ) to extend range.

Hybrid cars add complexity.

I looked at the Audi A3 etron, which is an example of this, isn't it? A plug-in hybrid? Nice little car but the "new" ones were 2018 and I'd be worried about them being orphaned. Also, I notice the dealer jacked the price up by almost the exact amount of the federal rebate around May 1. Interestingly they trash-talked Tesla, ergo I can only conclude Tesla is stealing their customers!

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I looked at the Audi A3 etron, which is an example of this, isn't it? A plug-in hybrid? Nice little car but the "new" ones were 2018 and I'd be worried about them being orphaned. Also, I notice the dealer jacked the price up by almost the exact amount of the federal rebate around May 1. Interestingly they trash-talked Tesla, ergo I can only conclude Tesla is stealing their customers!

The Chevy Volt was a better example, as it had a much larger battery than the Etron. The Volt also didn't have the compromises of the BMW's weird scooter engine and tiny gas tank. It basically drives the same if you're running on gas or electricity.

The Volt also got discontinued though. The problem I see is that they have all the complexity of both drive systems, which is big money to produce. It's cheaper just to double down and do a big battery. GM is apparently going to re-use the drive train in other vehicles though, which is good because honestly it works very well. They just need to package it in a form that makes them money.

I eventually plan on replacing my Volt with used Tesla at some point though.

Chrysler also makes a PHEV Pacifica. Strangely they just call it the Pacifica Hybrid and don't mention the plug in the name.

[WarrenC12]

The Hyundai Ioniq should be an interesting case study. It started as a Prius challenger (same specs and economy but about $5k cheaper), they also have a Plug-In hybrid version, and a full electric version. All essentially the same car otherwise.

[Tvisforme]

IMHO another big factor in the expansion of EV use will be when most domestic vehicles have electric engines as an option, much like the choice for different displacements or (in days gone by) diesel. Right now, I'd say that for many people choosing an EV means choosing one of the available EV models, instead of buying the car they actually want with an electric engine.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Hybrids make less sense than you think on a consumer car. They're usually a compromise... and when you're using one of the engines you're dragging around the weight and using the space up of the other.

I think the Prius proves you wrong about this. The beauty of a hybrid is that you get the range and price very close to that of a gas engine but you get many of the benefits of electric drive. Those benefits include far lower gas usage and a lot less wear and tear on the brakes and the gas engine, which results in dramatically longer lifespan. And despite the more complex drivetrain Toyota has managed to make the Prius one of the most reliable cars on the road.

Taxi owners, who know better than most what cars give the best economic value over their lifetime, overwhelmingly choose Prius variants - that should tell you something about how much "sense" it makes as a commuter car.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

IMHO another big factor in the expansion of EV use will be when most domestic vehicles have electric engines as an option, much like the choice for different displacements or (in days gone by) diesel. Right now, I'd say that for many people choosing an EV means choosing one of the available EV models, instead of buying the car they actually want with an electric engine.

That's probably not going to happen, at least not with any good results. EVs are best built around the batteries, while combustion engines determine the shape of normal vehicles.

The rather low range EVs that came onto the market in 2011-2015 were generally compromised by having to re-use platforms not designed around the batteries. Either the batteries were tiny, or they compromised the layout of the vehicle.

The more recent vehicles designed around the batteries generally put them in the floor, and have way more passenger space available. Some like the Bolt, Niro, and Kona have kind of split the difference in that the batteries are floor mounted, and the power electronics are shaped like the conventional FWD gas motor, so they use a modified platform which accomodates EVs fairly well, but they still waste some space.

The BMW i3 is kind of a funny case where it was designed from the ground up to be an EV, but the space for the optional generator takes up some room regardless of whether the vehicle is equipped with it or not.

Tesla is currently the only company to use platforms built only for EVs, which gives the a huge layout advantage, providing extra room for storage.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Tesla is currently the only company to use platforms built only for EVs, which gives the a huge layout advantage, providing extra room for storage.

I think Tesla's focus on stylistic design compromises it's internal space - I find the layout of the Bolt to be much better optimized. But I admit that my point of view is biased - I'm a utilitiarian, not a stylista.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I think Tesla's focus on stylistic design compromises it's internal space - I find the layout of the Bolt to be much better optimized. But I admit that my point of view is biased - I'm a utilitiarian, not a stylista.

It's all about aerodynamics. Teslas are long low and rounded because they're more aerodynamically efficient than any other car on the road of a similar size. Hence, they get better mileage out of a similar sized pack.

A 54kWh Tesla gets about the same mileage as the 62 kWh Bolt, despite the Tesla being larger, heavier, and more powerful. Since they're limited by batteries currently, that lets them sell more cars and cuts costs.

[Trainguy]

BC Hydro is spouting the praises of buying an EV and all the cost savings vs gasoline but what they don't tell you is the high cost of buying one and all the interest you will be paying on your car loan. The total cost of ownership has to be taken into account. The buyer also has to know the limitations of an EV. Great for short trips in the city but not great on road trips across mountain ranges, especially if you don't fancy stopping somewhere for hours to recharge your EV.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out for the average consumer. Most of my friends are not driving around in $50,000+ cars nor could they really afford to. At this point is seems like a novelty car for the wealthy. Time will tell.