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  #581  
Old Posted Feb 4, 2020, 11:48 PM
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I imagine this underground complex was used to store money? I know that during WWII, Allied countries from Europe would entrust us with their money and national treasures, secured in the Bank of Canada volts. But today, in a world where money is digital, is the Bank of Canada underground complex still used in this way?
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  #582  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 4:41 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is online now
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Originally Posted by J.OT13 View Post
I imagine this underground complex was used to store money? I know that during WWII, Allied countries from Europe would entrust us with their money and national treasures, secured in the Bank of Canada volts. But today, in a world where money is digital, is the Bank of Canada underground complex still used in this way?
That was the location of Canada's gold reserve. I know we don't follow the gold standard anymore, but is there still some gold reserve today?
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  #583  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 1:33 PM
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That was the location of Canada's gold reserve. I know we don't follow the gold standard anymore, but is there still some gold reserve today?
How did I not think about gold? That's definitely something tangible we would not phase out. It would still be weird to keep it in downtown Ottawa in this day and age.

How much of the underground does the new museum take up? That must have been part of the volts beforehand.
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  #584  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
That was the location of Canada's gold reserve. I know we don't follow the gold standard anymore, but is there still some gold reserve today?
It's not for the gold. We don't have any anymore:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gol...rves-1.3443700
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  #585  
Old Posted Feb 5, 2020, 6:04 PM
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It's not for the gold. We don't have any anymore:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/gol...rves-1.3443700
That was definitely where the gold reserve was located. What those vaults are used for today is another question. Maybe they are even empty.
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  #586  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 1:50 PM
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The long-awaited technical briefing on connections across the river is happening tomorrow morning.

https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/st...232687618?s=19
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  #587  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 1:55 PM
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The long-awaited technical briefing on connections across the river is happening tomorrow morning.

https://twitter.com/OTrainFans613/st...232687618?s=19
I'm nervous...
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  #588  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 2:04 PM
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I'm nervous...
Why?
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  #589  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 2:10 PM
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Why?
On one side, we have Gatineau probably looking for a penny-wise solution while on the other side we have Ottawa who wants STO buses out of downtown but will likely reject any solution that runs street level or causes any sort of impact on traffic, yet seem unwilling to make any suggestions of their own.

Anything that falls short of dropping people off at the door step of Lyon station (and that may mean an additional entrance) will be a disappointment.
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  #590  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 2:31 PM
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On one side, we have Gatineau probably looking for a penny-wise solution while on the other side we have Ottawa who wants STO buses out of downtown but will likely reject any solution that runs street level or causes any sort of impact on traffic, yet seem unwilling to make any suggestions of their own.

Anything that falls short of dropping people off at the door step of Lyon station (and that may mean an additional entrance) will be a disappointment.
As long as they bury it, I say get 'er done.
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  #591  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 2:39 PM
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As long as they bury it, I say get 'er done.
That would be ideal. Under Sparks, with the STO and OC concourses at the same level, linked by a couple hallways. Add an entrance or two on Sparks, maybe even one more within PdV.
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  #592  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 3:48 PM
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I'm partial to the idea of running it on the surface. I hear that the feds are pushing for closing Wellington to vehicles at some point in the medium term as part of their Precinct planning. Presumably between Elgin and Bank, if not Kent. If that were the case, then running trams along the east side of Portage/north side of Wellington and through the car-free zone would run smooth and quick without any significant cross-traffic all the way to Elgin. And when the time comes, it'd be well-positioned to be extended to Mackenzie and up to the Alexandra Bridge to complete the loop.

Surface options have benefits beyond being orders of magnitude less expensive:
- They're much faster and easier to access (getting down to a LRT station is like 2 minutes of stairs and escalators, vs just stepping onto a platform)
- You get to see the city from transit, and transit in the city. Compare the tedium of the Metro's tunnels to the experience to taking the Skytrain, for example.
- You can have more stations, getting people closer to where they need to be.
- and yes, it's still orders of magnitude less expensive, which is money you can spend on other improvements to the system (like sturdy train doors)

Normally, this is outweighed by the fact that it's hard to keep surface transit reliable and to ensure its priority because of all the cross-traffic. But in a Wellington scenario, none of that applies. I'd be surprised if a tunnel option were anything more than a whisker faster than a surface alternative. And then with walking time taken into account (both to and from fewer stations and the much longer surface-to-platform access time), I actually think that the surface option would be faster for passengers.


The other big argument for a tunnel is a direct, tunnel-to-tunnel transfer to the Confed Line. Call me a blasphemer, but I think the importance of direct transfers to and from the Confed Line are less of a 'need to have' and more of a 'nice to have'. From the Gatineau perspective, there aren't enough transfers to make a lack of a direct connection a sine qua non dealbreaker. You want it to be easy, but there are more important considerations.

A walk from Wellington to the Sparks/Queen entrances for the LRT stations is like 100-150m, easily walked in under 90 seconds. That counts as quick and easy. Heck, for much less than a tunnel under Sparks, you could build escalator tunnels under O'Connor and Lyon which allow a direct diagonal route from the surface at Wellington to the mezzanine at Queen.

My concern is that a direct connection will be overvalued at the expense of much more useful attributes. If a direct connection to Lyon means that trams advance no further into downtown, that's a poor trade. I think most riders would rather have to walk 100m to the Confed Line, if that means not having to transfer at all when heading to the eastern half of downtown.
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  #593  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 4:19 PM
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Though I agree with many of your arguments, a Wellington route is actually further from most employment in the CBD, though STO users are use to it. Easy transfers between the STO Tram and Line 1 are more inportant than what people think. Thousands of Gatineau students go to uOttawa and La Cité, countless public servants work at Tunney's, Confederation Heights, DND's Nortel Campus and many other federal complexes outside downtown.

The biggest advantage of the surface option of course, is the possibility of implementing the long talked about downtown loop. Stage 1 could to all the way to old Union, Stage 2 could go down Sussex and over the new Alexandra Bridge.

If it's at all possible to add entrances for Line 1 on Wellington (similar to your proposed escalator tunnels or just very long ramps), that's a huge bonus.

If we go with a surface option, I hope we invest in wireless, if that's even possible in our climate.
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  #594  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 7:50 PM
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Though I agree with many of your arguments, a Wellington route is actually further from most employment in the CBD, though STO users are use to it.
We have to keep in mind that distance is 3D though. Sparks may be closer to, say, Albert street on a map. But it takes you an extra 60 seconds to get down to the platform (same depth as the CL). So it's not actually faster than walking the extra 100m to Wellington. Add in the fact that you can more easily have more stations on the surface than underground, and surface takes the advantage.


Quote:
Easy transfers between the STO Tram and Line 1 are more inportant than what people think. Thousands of Gatineau students go to uOttawa and La Cité, countless public servants work at Tunney's, Confederation Heights, DND's Nortel Campus and many other federal complexes outside downtown.
There are certainly a number of people who will transfer. Just not enough for it to be the primary concern for the design of the downtown portion. Put another way, a system without a direct transfer to the CL will still work well. But a system with a direct transfer but no direct access downtown wouldn't.


Quote:
If we go with a surface option, I hope we invest in wireless, if that's even possible in our climate.
I wonder whether on-board batteries would work in our climate. I've heard of supercapacitor batteries which allow trams to move 600-1000m between stations, where they can recharge quickly. It certainly wouldn't work over the whole route, but it could be an option for some sections like rue Principale and Wellington.
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  #595  
Old Posted May 14, 2020, 10:19 PM
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I’m trying to think of any reason why Ottawa would agree to a surface connection and I’m coming up empty. I can see why Gatineau would prefer it for cost reasons, but that’s not Ottawa’s problem.
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  #596  
Old Posted May 15, 2020, 1:18 AM
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I feel like it should be in Ottawa's interest to integrate the two systems as much as possible? Maybe I'm just naïve
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  #597  
Old Posted May 15, 2020, 1:31 AM
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I feel like it should be in Ottawa's interest to integrate the two systems as much as possible? Maybe I'm just naïve
Looked at that way, then yes, underground to integrate with the underground built a great expense in Ottawa.
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  #598  
Old Posted May 15, 2020, 1:45 AM
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I feel like it should be in Ottawa's interest to integrate the two systems as much as possible? Maybe I'm just naïve
Ideally we should have one regional transit authority and take transit out of the hands of the municipalities.
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  #599  
Old Posted May 15, 2020, 1:46 AM
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Ottawa built a system underground because surface operation wasn't conducive to reliable service on Albert/Slater. But Wellington is.
Just because it's sensible to wear a coat in January doesn't mean you should be obligated to wear it in July. Just because it was sensible for LRT to tunnel under Queen doesn't mean it's sensible to tunnel under Wellington.

I'm not saying that there aren't super valid reasons to push an underground alternative. But "thematic consistency" is a pretty weak one.
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  #600  
Old Posted May 15, 2020, 2:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post
Ottawa built a system underground because surface operation wasn't conducive to reliable service on Albert/Slater. But Wellington is.
Just because it's sensible to wear a coat in January doesn't mean you should be obligated to wear it in July. Just because it was sensible for LRT to tunnel under Queen doesn't mean it's sensible to tunnel under Wellington.

I'm not saying that there aren't super valid reasons to push an underground alternative. But "thematic consistency" is a pretty weak one.
Ottawa built a tunnel because a surface-running LRT wouldn't offer the capacity necessary for projected growth. Wouldn't have made a difference if they tried running it on Wellington.
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