Third Harbour Crossing

[Djeffery]

And you probably get more upper level government funding for a transit project than a road project.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I can't think of a practical way to integrate the ramps/approaches into the south end for a bridge long enough to cross that distance and high enough to allow ships to pass underneath. A tunnel would be the only practical option even though we'd be losing out on having a grand landmark. A tunnel would be more costly and it wouldn't have as much capacity but really the street grid wouldn't be capable of handling huge amounts of traffic dumped in that part of town. Given how much NIMBYS holler about how any new building would change the "character" of a neighbourhood, just imagine how much the introduction of traffic from a multi-lane freeway would change the character...

Capacity and cost aren't really that much of a factor.

Yes, a tunnel would likely be more expensive, but not an order of magnitude more than a bridge. Especially if we're looking at an immersed tube rather than bored tunnel.

As for capacity, Vancouver is looking at an 8-lane tunnel to replace the George Massey Tunnel now, so I don't think that's much of an issue, either. (https://bc.ctvnews.ca/8-lane-massey-tunn...ectors-1.4666481?cache=%3FclipId%3D68596).

But yes, the ideal would be to at least have some of any new infrastructure dedicated to transit (train and/or BRT).

[Nor'easter]

The lifespan of a suspension bridge can be over 100 years—I don’t think it is reasonable to assume that the existing south end container terminal facilities will continue to operate in such a high value location for the next century. We are talking about 150 acres here, including reclamation, in the downtown waterfront area of one of the fastest growing large cities in the country. On top of this, we have the rail cut, a tremendous gift from our forefathers which as a ROW is priceless.

Sooner or later, the opportunity cost of operating a container terminal in downtown Halifax will be too great to bear. I think we will see a relocation/consolidation of container facilities on the Dartmouth side, development of a tremendous addition to the city’s waterfront and what I would hope to be the terminus of an iconic third crossing. What a sight that would be, entering Halifax Harbour.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

The lifespan of a suspension bridge can be over 100 years—I don’t think it is reasonable to assume that the existing south end container terminal facilities will continue to operate in such a high value location for the next century. We are talking about 150 acres here, including reclamation, in the downtown waterfront area of one of the fastest growing large cities in the country. On top of this, we have the rail cut, a tremendous gift from our forefathers which as a ROW is priceless.

Sooner or later, the opportunity cost of operating a container terminal in downtown Halifax will be too great to bear. I think we will see a relocation/consolidation of container facilities on the Dartmouth side, development of a tremendous addition to the city’s waterfront and what I would hope to be the terminus of an iconic third crossing. What a sight that would be, entering Halifax Harbour.

This sounds like the best case scenario in my mind as it would have the capability of connecting with highway 111, and there would still be potential to include commuter rail along with motor vehicles, if the city actually decided to go that way.

[Nouvellecosse]

I wonder if Brescia Italy might be the best comparison for the Halifax metro.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brescia_Metro
http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/it/bre/brescia.htm

13.7km total length with 9.2km underground (mostly deep bored tunnel) and the automated metro with the same short 39m trains as the Copenhagen metro. Ours would be 7.2km tunnel and 13.2km total. It seems Brescia is larger compared with Halifax in terms of population as Wiki lists city as 200k, urban area of 650k and metro of 1.2m but the important aspect is the number of people potentially served by the route (and notably that we have a major choke point in the harbour which they don't).

Brescia ridership is listed as about 50k/ weekday average and I think we could expect similar here. Our total system daily ridership is about 90-100k, and I don't think it's unrealistic that at least 1/2 of total riders would transfer to the metro for some part of their trip.

We can also expect that the increase in service speed, comfort and reliability would grow the total ridership, perhaps significantly. For example, the ferry's actual travel time seems to be about 8 minutes, but the total time I usually spend on the ferry is about 15 min since it sits there for awhile before leaving and takes time to dock and unload. There's also walking time to/from the ferry so the trip is more like 20 min from Alderney st. to Lr. Water st.

The metro's cruising speed would be 80km/h or 45 sec/km and if you add 30 sec dwell time on each end and 15 sec acceleration/deceleration on each end, the total trip would be 2.5 min. from Alderney to Barrington/Duke. 8 times faster. Not to mention that increase in frequency would drastically reduce average wait times. I wouldn't be surprised if total system ridership increased by 50% over the following decade.

[Corker]

What is the harbour depth between George's Island and Dartmouth? Would that be a problem for using a tunnel or tube as a third crossing from the circ to the south end?

[MolteN]

I feel the economic benefits of getting all that heavy truck traffic rerouted to the circ with a south end tunnel will almost be equal with time to the cost of building the tunnel itself, it can free up the downtown grid to be used for public and active transportation better.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolteN

I feel the economic benefits of getting all that heavy truck traffic rerouted to the circ with a south end tunnel will almost be equal with time to the cost of building the tunnel itself, it can free up the downtown grid to be used for public and active transportation better.

There is a rail line being constructed from the South End terminal to Fairview that is supposed to cut down on truck traffic. Not sure how much traffic will be eliminated with this:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/halifax-rail-line-container-terminal-traffic-1.5160542

It is tied to other traffic improvements for the Windsor Street Exchange area.

In the past there was discussion around the possibility of an inland terminal for moving containers to trucks. I think that makes a lot more sense in principle than building a bridge for trucks leaving the South End, although I also believe that some new bridges may be needed in the long run as the metro population expands. But I think transportation improvements for the Mainland South area (Armdale, Spryfield) might have a better cost-benefit ratio.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Corker

What is the harbour depth between George's Island and Dartmouth? Would that be a problem for using a tunnel or tube as a third crossing from the circ to the south end?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halifax_Harbour

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/IMRAY%281884%29_p0749_HALIFAX.jpg

Using this, it looks to be 12-17 fathoms, or 72-102 feet deep.

[Summerville]

I guess this answers the question about a third crossing for now...

https://www.hdbc.ca/proposed-toll-increase/

Allns is reporting that a replacement of the MacKay bridge will be in the area of $1billion, have 6 vehicle lanes, and lanes for pedestrians and cyclists. For the span, it would be quite the trip on foot

[Citizen_Bane]

A billion dollars?!! With a quick glance at a map I see a much shorter distance across the harbour narrows from a point of land in Shannon Park to near where the McKay currently lands on the Halifax side. What's Shannon Park worth? Is there potential to save a hundred million?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane

A billion dollars?!! With a quick glance at a map I see a much shorter distance across the harbour narrows from a point of land in Shannon Park to near where the McKay currently lands on the Halifax side. What's Shannon Park worth? Is there potential to save a hundred million?

A new crossing where the MacKay bridge is won't solve much.

[Good Baklava]

I would have assumed the Macdonald is the priority for replacement.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Citizen_Bane

A billion dollars?!! With a quick glance at a map I see a much shorter distance across the harbour narrows from a point of land in Shannon Park to near where the McKay currently lands on the Halifax side. What's Shannon Park worth? Is there potential to save a hundred million?

I suspect the land around Shannon Park would be untouchable at this point.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/millbrook-shannon-park-land-development-1.5885349

Besides, you still have to provide the means to move large volumes of traffic to and from the bridge, which would increase the costs vastly around the narrows, as such infrastructure doesn't currently exist there.

[Antigonish]

If you're going to be spending over a billion dollars bare minimum, and for an existing crossing replacement no less, then start putting money in the saving account and start looking at a tunnel project from Inglis to the Circ terminus on the Dartmouth side. And if that happens you may as well bore a tunnel wide enough to accommodate LRT corridors in the traffic median.

In the end of the day, for the city to grow another 70k-100k all the lands in Shearwater are going to have to be freed up. I guess it depends on what the feds want to do with it but considering the massive amounts of land (and value) they could decommission the area and sell it for a huge profit and flip the revenue into a replacement site somewhere else nearby; say Otter Lake area south of the 103 which is just empty crap wilderness and rocky soil so not much important land for agriculture or anything.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

If you're going to be spending over a billion dollars bare minimum, and for an existing crossing replacement no less, then start putting money in the saving account and start looking at a tunnel project from Inglis to the Circ terminus on the Dartmouth side. And if that happens you may as well bore a tunnel wide enough to accommodate LRT corridors in the traffic median.

In the end of the day, for the city to grow another 70k-100k all the lands in Shearwater are going to have to be freed up. I guess it depends on what the feds want to do with it but considering the massive amounts of land (and value) they could decommission the area and sell it for a huge profit and flip the revenue into a replacement site somewhere else nearby; say Otter Lake area south of the 103 which is just empty crap wilderness and rocky soil so not much important land for agriculture or anything.

Shearwater isn't going to be freed up. It is needed for the RCN to operate successfully. It houses the heliport for the RCN. However, they could build more military housing there. The problem is, without the tunnel to get over, living there isn't the greatest. So, if you want to see more military housing on the property, build the tunnel.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Good Baklava

I would have assumed the Macdonald is the priority for replacement.

I don't know what the plans are for the Macdonald but I would hope that it will be treated like a heritage element in the city. It would be a shame to see it replaced with a boring modern bridge, and I'm not sure either side would handle the increased traffic well.

I'd expect that either side of the MacKay could be adjusted to handle 6 lanes worth of traffic.

[Dartguard]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Shearwater isn't going to be freed up. It is needed for the RCN to operate successfully. It houses the heliport for the RCN. However, they could build more military housing there. The problem is, without the tunnel to get over, living there isn't the greatest. So, if you want to see more military housing on the property, build the tunnel.

Very True. Chretien and company tried and nearly succeeded in shutting it all down back in the nineties until the Yanks had an Adult chat about how important the entire Eastern Passage industrial region is for NATO. We take it for granted because we live here but bigger heads look at the whole package.

The most Easterly terminus of the North American intercontinental Rail network ends at Auto port. CN can store and move over 10,000 vehicle's to a deep water load facility that can be turn over to military purposes in the snap of the finger. The Imperial Oil Tank Farm is also the closest collection of POL before to open Atlantic to get to Europe.

Shearwaters old main runway has not been used in years but at 8500 feet and reinforced it used to land the largest aircraft in the world including B-52's and fully loaded C-5 Galaxy Transports. Refurbishment if needed would probably take the U.S. military no time at all if they set their mind to it.


The deep water jetty in the Shearwater lower base is one of only 4 outside of the Continental U.S. that is safety certified to dock any U.S. or NATO Nuclear powered or armed Submarines.


Shearwater is not going anywhere.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by someone123

I don't know what the plans are for the Macdonald but I would hope that it will be treated like a heritage element in the city. It would be a shame to see it replaced with a boring modern bridge, and I'm not sure either side would handle the increased traffic well.

I'd expect that either side of the MacKay could be adjusted to handle 6 lanes worth of traffic.

Why not leave both bridges alone and build a 6 lane twin tunnel for?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Dartguard

Very True. Chretien and company tried and nearly succeeded in shutting it all down back in the nineties until the Yanks had an Adult chat about how important the entire Eastern Passage industrial region is for NATO. We take it for granted because we live here but bigger heads look at the whole package.

The most Easterly terminus of the North American intercontinental Rail network ends at Auto port. CN can store and move over 10,000 vehicle's to a deep water load facility that can be turn over to military purposes in the snap of the finger. The Imperial Oil Tank Farm is also the closest collection of POL before to open Atlantic to get to Europe.

Shearwaters old main runway has not been used in years but at 8500 feet and reinforced it used to land the largest aircraft in the world including B-52's and fully loaded C-5 Galaxy Transports. Refurbishment if needed would probably take the U.S. military no time at all if they set their mind to it.


The deep water jetty in the Shearwater lower base is one of only 4 outside of the Continental U.S. that is safety certified to dock any U.S. or NATO Nuclear powered or armed Submarines.


Shearwater is not going anywhere.

That doesn't mean the land around it couldn't be built up around it. With the 2 bridges being the only way across, and cheap housing in the area, it isn't going to see much for a while.