WINNIPEG | Portage Place Redevelopment

[Biff]

I guess my contact will be disappointed.

[WinCitySparky]

What would the cost be to simply demolish the mall and market the land? Would this not make more sense in terms of stimulating development faster? Obviously the cost and complication of overhauling it as it currently exists is largely untenable vs a new build on a fresh slate of land that could be divided up for multiple developments?

I’m a builder and not a realty minded person, so anyone who understands this better could please enlighten me on the nuances.

[Wigglez]

Wasn't the Forks development tied to the sale of the parkade? Is that now in danger of being delayed yet again?

[esquire]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

What would the cost be to simply demolish the mall and market the land? Would this not make more sense in terms of stimulating development faster? Obviously the cost and complication of overhauling it as it currently exists is largely untenable vs a new build on a fresh slate of land that could be divided up for multiple developments?

I’m a builder and not a realty minded person, so anyone who understands this better could please enlighten me on the nuances.

This idea has its appeal for sure. The odds of finding some developers to take on, say, 10 mid sized projects seems more likely than finding one to take on a mammoth project.

Although the concern there is that a couple of developers snipe the few prime Portage Avenue positions and everything else remains vacant for the next 50 years.

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by esquire

Although the concern there is that a couple of developers snipe the few prime Portage Avenue positions and everything else remains vacant for the next 50 years.

If the rapid transit expansion through portage goes according to plan I think it’ll incentivize developers to fill out the whole space quite easily. Also if the subsidies offered by the city and province stay on the table that might also speed up the process. I think moving away from Starlight is a blessing in disguise. You could probably fit 1,000-1,500 residential units in the space if Portage Place gets demolished.

Maybe they can go wild and add some bike lanes as well.

[Wigglez]

Originally Posted by WinCitySparky

What would the cost be to simply demolish the mall and market the land? Would this not make more sense in terms of stimulating development faster? Obviously the cost and complication of overhauling it as it currently exists is largely untenable vs a new build on a fresh slate of land that could be divided up for multiple developments?

I’m a builder and not a realty minded person, so anyone who understands this better could please enlighten me on the nuances.

Could demolish it and create a similar project to the Market Lands development in the exchange. Have some fairly strict city control to assure the right projects go through. I imagine with far less land use requirements on the PP lands compared to the Market Lands and the higher profile location you could probably get some good interest in multiple projects.

Though I would be concerned with the "Winnipeg pace" we have on large projects like that... I'd hate for it to be vacant land for decades similar to the Forks development.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Wasn't the Forks development tied to the sale of the parkade? Is that now in danger of being delayed yet again?

This is where my mind immediately went when I saw the news. That would be a huge blow. This development certainly seemed quite sketchy from the start - or at least people who dug into the developers felt it was sketchy based on their history, so I was prepared for the fact that PP would get cancelled. But I'd be really bummed to hear that Railside is collateral damage to this deal. Of prospective projects in Winnipeg, Railside easily has me the most excited.

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by Wigglez

Could demolish it and create a similar project to the Market Lands development in the exchange. Have some fairly strict city control to assure the right projects go through. I imagine with far less land use requirements on the PP lands compared to the Market Lands and the higher profile location you could probably get some good interest in multiple projects.

Though I would be concerned with the "Winnipeg pace" we have on large projects like that... I'd hate for it to be vacant land for decades similar to the Forks development.

Difference is the city doesn't own portage place. The city's land lease on portage place expires 2062.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

I think moving away from Starlight is a blessing in disguise.

That's the way I feel today. This has dragged on for so long and the demands from Starlight kept getting more and more outrageous I'm glad it's done. I'd love to see a group not unlike the group looking to redevelop The Bay take on Portage Place and aggressively look for redevelopers to take it on.

[thurmas]

Demolish PP and sell it off as a few parcels of smaller condo towers a grocery store and a park/farmers market. Make the bay a casino and can be tied as part of the entertainment district

[WildCake]

The issue with demolition is that there is the existing foundation for two mid-sized towers essentially ready to go. You can't negate the potential cost saving on a developer's end if they use that existing work.

Tearing the whole mall down and it probably becomes a parking lot like the many others we're hoping gets replaced across the city. At least right now it has the bones to be something better, and a money making parkade below ground.

I wonder if there would be a way you could subdivide the mall where a developer could take on just one of the towers and have the 2nd tower built by another, with both splitting the inevitable cost of modernizing the existing facilities.

[thurmas]

True north Square seems like a terrible idea as they really were needed instead to replace the bay and portage place.

[rrskylar]

Good news for everyone!

No one seemed to learn from the original mistake!

[GreyGarden]

Article in today's WFP on Portage Place:

https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/op...576253662.html

Nothing too exciting - basically arguing for a community centre and affordable housing. I personally would like to see just a regular city development of a couple towers with a commercial podium like the countless proposals we see across the country. But given the potential glut of market rental units in the City and the almost zero demand for condos, I guess the model discussed by the author could at least serve to meet the demand they discuss in the article.

Link to the author's full report:

https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/...hapter%203.pdf

This was an interesting read. A bit of it felt pretty naïve and ungrounded from the realities of urban development in Canada, but some of the stories and ideas kept me engaged.

[thebasketballgeek]

I like those ideas and they’re probably better for the existing community then having market-rate housing displace existing residents.

Btw your comments about the demand for condos is incorrect. 72% of units built last year were either multi-family apartments or condos. Only 28% of new builds were single-family detached house.

Just eyeballing the construction activity this year multi-family housing will take an even higher percentage and we might get up to 75-80% multifamily.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

Article in today's WFP on Portage Place:


This was an interesting read. A bit of it felt pretty naïve and ungrounded from the realities of urban development in Canada, but some of the stories and ideas kept me engaged.

I agree some good ideas, as long as the reader can get past the romanticized portrayal of pre-PP north Portage as an idyllic oasis of loving families, filled with hugs, puppies and rainbows, only to be raped by evil Snidely Whiplash corporations.

[GreyGarden]

Originally Posted by thebasketballgeek

Btw your comments about the demand for condos is incorrect. 72% of units built last year were either multi-family apartments or condos. Only 28% of new builds were single-family detached house.

Just eyeballing the construction activity this year multi-family housing will take an even higher percentage and we might get up to 75-80% multifamily.

I feel like we haven't seen a condo development downtown since D-Condos and based on my understanding those were converted to rentals. I'm sure there is plenty of condo activity happening in the suburbs, but I haven't seen it in the inner city.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by GreyGarden

I feel like we haven't seen a condo development downtown since D-Condos and based on my understanding those were converted to rentals. I'm sure there is plenty of condo activity happening in the suburbs, but I haven't seen it in the inner city.

Yeah obviously buyers are still pretty skittish about actually becoming owners in the downtown area. That said hopefully with the rail side project at the forks happening and as more critical mass is achieved with more and more units coming online (albeit rentals), the perception will improve. Once enough people are actually permanent residents and not just the office dwellers the area will significantly improve organically but there’s clearly a long way to go in that regard

[trueviking]

I very much support the government building more affordable housing and community supports in the central park area.

I am not as excited by turning three blocks of Portage Avenue into a giant home for social programming. I would hope for something more mixed income and mixed-use. Tailoring it to the downtown community instead of suburban drivers is a good idea. I just don't want all of our major downtown street to be lined with social supports in the way Selkirk Avenue is.

Asking HBC to fund it is not a realistic proposition.

[Biff]

^^^
I generally do not comment on these hot button topics because they usually devolve into a shit-fest...but Viking captured my feelings as well. I agree.