What is it like to come home to Canada?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by shreddog

The problem with a "only US focus" re. healthcare, is that most Canadians's don't realize just how shitty our system is. It seems like Canada has gone out of it's way to have the worst of every possible system every where. Yes it's "free", but don't ever try to access it! Most places elsewhere in world that have public healthcare also have a "private" addon option. And even when they don't, it's still more accesible that anything I've seen in Canada in over a decade.

Anyway, back to your "Canada is the best" mantra ...

I don't think our healthcare is shitty. It's got some problems. But by global standards, it's decent. But, Canadians who talk about healthcare always misunderstand a few things:

1) "average" in the US is flawed because they have a much wider range than us.
2) Nobody who is moving cares about "average".
3) Quality of life is more than healthcare.

Seriously, when was the last time you heard somebody, "No, I will not take that $200k/yr position in North Carolina because public healthcare there sucks."? All this talk about how great Canadian healthcare is, ain't stopping our best and brightest from leaving. Y'all need better lines.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Issues that are largely fixable with proper reinvestment. Stop starving provincial healthcare systems.

They are fixable. But like so many other things, something being fixable has not stopped governments from not fixing it. And for anybody who has a decent amount of talent, life is too short to depend on the public voting in the right politicians to get something done.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I don't think our healthcare is shitty. It's got some problems. But by global standards, it's decent. But, Canadians who talk about healthcare always misunderstand a few things:

1) "average" in the US is flawed because they have a much wider range than us.
2) Nobody who is moving cares about "average".
3) Quality of life is more than healthcare.

Seriously, when was the last time you heard somebody, "No, I will not take that $200k/yr position in North Carolina because public healthcare there sucks."? All this talk about how great Canadian healthcare is, ain't stopping our best and brightest from leaving. Y'all need better lines.

Shitty may be a harsh term, but when compared to other "western" countries, it's hard not to think so. Case in point, in the past 12 months, I encountered a number of Canadians close to ending their expat stints all "cramming" in last minute medical treatments - including knee replacements - before heading back to Canada and being stuck in a queue.

Compared to developing nations, Canada is good, but compared to our peers, it's hard to sing praises when 1 in 7 Canadians don't even have a family doctor!

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Issues that are largely fixable with proper reinvestment. Stop starving provincial healthcare systems.

40% of Ontario's budget goes to the Health Sector. How much more should be spent such that it's not starving? 45%? 50% 60%


Maybe it's not how much is spent, but how it's spent.

[Wigs]

In the Tech industry the talent is no longer leaving Canada en masse.

I recall reading an article a few years ago that Graduates from Waterloo, Toronto, elsewhere across Canada adamantly refused to move to Silicon Valley, and Toronto has become one of the fastest growing tech job markets and now one of the largest in North America.

This is a different article but worthy of hyping


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/t...tech-boom.html

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Seriously, when was the last time you heard somebody, "No, I will not take that $200k/yr position in North Carolina because public healthcare there sucks."? All this talk about how great Canadian healthcare is, ain't stopping our best and brightest from leaving. Y'all need better lines.

Exactly, "the proof is in the pudding". Just look at the direction of the brain drain and it will tell you which side of the border is the most appealing.

[kool maudit]

In Sweden, they have actually ended the entire concept of a family doctor on an institutional level. You have an app called 1177, where you FaceTime nurses who decide whether to send you to the ER or make an appointment with a specialist for you. Even with private care, you just have a better 1177 with a nurse who will send you to a specialist at a private clinic more quickly.

In Denmark, by contrast, when you move into a new house or apartment you are provided with a list of nearby family doctors and you pick one. Denmark is obviously the far better system.

Canada with a family doctor is better than Sweden, I would say.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I recall reading an article a few years ago that Graduates from Waterloo, Toronto, elsewhere across Canada adamantly refused to move to Silicon Valley, and Toronto has become one of the fastest growing tech job markets and now one of the largest in North America.

You can't seriously believe that Canada has any equivalent to the better jobs at Google or Apple.

[Wigs]

Google, Apple, Microsoft, twitter, others have been forced to increase their Canadian offices and workforce in the past 5 or so years. (And yes I'm aware of the fairly recent tech slowdown in North America and mass layoffs).
Microsoft's shiny new offices in one of the new CIBC towers is an example.

But hey I don't work in the industry, I just read a lot

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly, "the proof is in the pudding". Just look at the direction of the brain drain and it will tell you which side of the border is the most appealing.

Ideology is a powerful drug. I have had arguments with educated people who denied the directionality of the flow across the Berlin Wall.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Google, Apple, Microsoft, twitter, others have been forced to increase their Canadian offices and workforce in the past 5 or so years. (And yes I'm aware of the fairly recent tech slowdown in North America and mass layoffs)

But hey I don't work in the industry I just read a lot

I don't work in it, either, and the above is certainly good news for Canada. But San Francisco is a very, very powerful metro right now, and you can do things there that you can't do in other places. I would be surprised if there were many people adamant about avoiding it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Correct. But the comment was about the world. Not just the developed part of the world. Certainly, there's other developed countries going through a similar malaise as us. The UK comes to mind.





The lower class definitely have it better in Canada. I would argue the Middle Class have it worse here. What use is public a healthcare system if you're going to die waiting for treatment (or less trivially suffer substantial degradation in quality of life)? In the US, the majority of the middle class has much better healthcare than most of us. Yes, it costs them more. But they are getting much better care.

The lower class has always been better off in Canada and the upper class better off in the US, with the middle class (ie most people) flipping between one or the other depending on the period of history.

Of course, the middle class' average wealth has only rarely been higher in Canada, but in Canada's better periods when it's close Canada's social safety net and other advantages probably made it better to live here than down there.

Right now we are in a phase where the wealth disparity is starting to get quite large, and the social safety net and other traditional Canadian advantages are withering.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

In Sweden, they have actually ended the entire concept of a family doctor on an institutional level. You have an app called 1177, where you FaceTime nurses who decide whether to send you to the ER or make an appointment with a specialist for you. Even with private care, you just have a better 1177 with a nurse who will send you to a specialist at a private clinic more quickly.

In Denmark, by contrast, when you move into a new house or apartment you are provided with a list of nearby family doctors and you pick one. Denmark is obviously the far better system.

Canada with a family doctor is better than Sweden, I would say.

We don't have a family doctor here, but since moving here my wife has seen a doctor 3 times. Basically you contact a central number and they tell you who is available, when and how close. As your records are all centralized, it really doesn't matter who you see.

FWIW, all three times she was seen within 48 hours (all minor stuff) with a 50 Eur co pay. Plus she had a dedicated 30 minute visit window where she could talk about as many ailments as she wished during that time slot.

[Nite]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

You can't seriously believe that Canada has any equivalent to the better jobs at Google or Apple.

I don't know about Apple, but google has tons of jobs in Canada

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

I don't work in it, either, and the above is certainly good news for Canada. But San Francisco is a very, very powerful metro right now, and you can do things there that you can't do in other places. I would be surprised if there were many people adamant about avoiding it.

I'm notorious on this forum for just talking out of my ass and making up shit all of the time

CBRE ranks Toronto as the 3rd largest tech market in North America, and growing.

Did you bother to take 5 minutes to even read the Times article from 2022? Lists all of the major companies making expansions in downtown Toronto.

TORONTO — In late February, Microsoft opened four floors of new office space near the top of a 50-story glass tower in downtown Toronto, a block from Scotiabank Arena, home of the Maple Leafs and the Raptors.

Apple and Amazon were already in towers just down the street, and Google was about to open a new building around the corner. Meta, formerly Facebook, did not yet have an office downtown, but many Toronto start-ups complained that the social media company was driving tech salaries to Silicon Valley levels as it recruited top engineers across the city. During the pandemic, it was hiring anyone willing to work from home.

A few blocks north, construction workers in yellow vests and hard hats were finishing three floors of new office space for another social media company: Pinterest. Stripe, an American payments company, was opening an office near City Hall, where Klarna, a Scandinavian payments company, had just announced its arrival with a flashy photo op alongside Mayor John Tory.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/21/t...tech-boom.html

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by shreddog

As your records are all centralized, it really doesn't matter who you see.

That's the same here, as 1177 is also a portal through which you can access your labs, journal, prescriptions, stuff like that. But anything chronic is far better with a doctor with whom you have some sort of relationship, I think. They know you, they have a sense of proportion and need.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by Wigs

Google, Apple, Microsoft, twitter, others have been forced to increase their Canadian offices and workforce in the past 5 or so years. (And yes I'm aware of the fairly recent tech slowdown in North America and mass layoffs).
Microsoft's shiny new offices in one of the new CIBC towers is an example.

But hey I don't work in the industry, I just read a lot

They aren't building up here because we are suddenly producing more great engineers. They are here because Trump made it harder to bring in H-1Bs and we made it a lot easier to bring in both TFWs and PRs. If they resolve their immigration fights in the US, these offices would be shut down.

But Canadians have more paths than H-1, so it's still attractive for a lot of our younger people to move. Heck, I know both companies and immigrants who basically have Canada as an enroute stop to the US. Work a few years in Canada, get the passport and then move when there's more visa options.

Should be noted that a lot of this is not actually great for local talent. Compare tech wages between Canada and the US and you'll see. We are basically growing our tech sector by offering to be the equivalent of Bangalore, but in the same time zone. That makes for flashy stats (like 3rd largest tech sector). But it absolutely sucks for those workers. They are getting shafted compared to their American counterparts.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by Wigs

I'm notorious on this forum for just talking out of my ass and making up shit all of the time

I didn't think you were making it up or being dishonest. I was expressing skepticism at the framing, which is more down to the journalist than you.

[Acajack]

Thinking about immigrants, and how all of the older immigrants I know (let's say 65 and older) are quite glowing about Canada and the opportunities they got here. It worked very well for them. (Though yes some are concerned about the current direction, but all have great things to say overall about the period up until maybe 10 years ago or so.)

Sure, there is probably some selection bias (those who stayed are those who did well, those who did not went back home) but the stories I've heard from that era (friends, neighbours, colleagues) are about people not being able to hack the winters or being homesick. Not about not being able to get ahead socio-economically.

So I wonder if immigrants who are younger (say, under 50) would say the same thing about Canada today.

Has it lived up to their expectations or (gasp!) their dreams?

Because it sure as hell did for those older people.

Some of you guys should seek them out and talk to them if you doubt what I am saying.

[shreddog]

Originally Posted by kool maudit

But anything chronic is far better with a doctor with whom you have some sort of relationship, I think. They know you, they have a sense of proportion and need.

Well, I'm hoping to never have to experience that, but so far based on my wife's experience, it's better than what we had in Vancouver.